An idea and a reply concerning ACC levies from Tauranga National MP

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

I replied to a thread in facebook regarding
I also think the figures regarding all of this are pretty powerful. ACC is losing billions at the moment. Regarding just motorcycles, ACC paid out more than $62m in the 2008/09 year and collected only $12.3m in motorcyclist levies. The maths in other words doesn't work well.

12.3m collected
(rego's only)
Mopeds: 25,304 levy $58.97. Total = $1,492,176.88.
Motorcyles: 71,648 levy $252.69. Total = $18,104,733.12
Total bikes: 96,952 total levy $19,596,910


What happen to the other $7,296,910



So all our ACC in PAYE, and all other Rego's (can only drive one vehicle at a time argement) and ACC in fuel doesn't count.

ACC have know what of know how much ACC is paid by bikers as a collective

Note also that even with the ACC Board's proposed incresaes to motorcyclists, every other non-motorcyclist driver will be subsidising motorcyclists at a rate of $77 each.

Short Fall

Now lets try it the other way which makes it look bad for bikers and good for government. Dr Smith said "Motorcyclists were 16 times more likely than car drivers to be involved in accidents yet car owners were currently subsidising their ACC bills by $77 each." The MOT Annual Vehicle Fleet Statistics for 2008 states there are 2,584,509 light passenger vehicles in New Zealand, light passenger vehicles are defined as cars and vans. [7]
So here is the problem $77 x 2,584,509 = $199,007,193 which means car drivers are paying $149m more than the total ACC cost supposedly incurred by motorcyclists. Latests stats show the fleet at 2,788,938 so these number are $214,748,226

Using $42m Short Fall
"$42,926,090 short fall / 2,584,509 vehicles = $16.60"
Latests stats show the fleet at 2,788,938 so these number are: $15.40 [8]

Using $50m Short Fall
Using those same figures "$50,000,000 (even though it is 42m) short fall / 2,584,509 vehicles = $19.35"
Latests stats show the fleet at 2,788,938 so these number are $17.93 [9]
Every vehicle is subsiding motorcycles by $77 is a lie and a fabrication. First off these numbers were only using the cars and vans fleet, not counting 519,992 Goods vans/trucks/utilities, buses, motorcampers or any of the other road registered vehicle if we did include these vehicles our $16.60 would be a lot lower.
Is it any wounder the country struggles with its bank accounts. Maybe we need to spend more money on Education... oh a common theme I see forming.

Finally, the cost of injuries from a motorcycle crash are four times higher than for non motorcycle crashes. I am certainly not saying all or even most crashes involving motorcycles are motorcyclists fault, just that the facts and figures are pretty significant.

In ACC's Injury Statistics 2008 report
Cyclists:

• 567 active claims
• ACC payout - $12,573,000
• $22,175 per claim

Pedestrians:

• 1115 active claims
• ACC payout - $24,494,000
• $21,968 per claim

Car Occupants:

• 8525 active claims
• ACC payout - $208,305,000
• $24,435 per claim

MOTORCYCLIST's

• 3173 active claims
• ACC payout - $62,523,000
• $19,705 per claim

Don't you hate statistics

[riffer]

12.3m collected

Mopeds: 25,304 levy $58.97. Total = $1,492,176.88.
Motorcyles: 71,648 levy $252.69. Total = $18,104,733.12
Total bikes: 96,952 total levy $19,596,910 (rego's only)


What happen to the other $7,296,910

You are assuming all the motorcycles are registered for the entire year.

This is patently not the case. Many motorcyclists are only registering their bike for a certain part of the year and putting the rego on hold for a large proportion of it.

Something that will only get worse if these proposals go ahead.

[Ixion]

..


You suspect right. And that $62M (if true) is spend on all active claims. That means the 1336-odd injuries during 2008 Plus 1840-odd ongoing payments to those injured in previous years. What I don't know is if payments are for medical-type stuff, or whether they include earnings compensation too.


Absolutely right.

The important thing is that the 1840 pre 2008 claims have already been fully funded in the year they occur. The do not need to be paid for from 2008 income. So the 12 million (noting the $7m that has disappeared) does NOT have to cover the whole 62M in claims. Only the present and future costs of the 2008 claims. Which ACC are totally silent about.

[riffer]

Yeah but even if you only register it for 3 months it's still a registered bike.

Capiche?

[jed4czar]

Reply from Nicki Kaye MP for Akld Central and further correspondence - For all your info.

Thank you for you reply Nicki.

How can we have a "no fault accident insurance programme" and yet attribute liability for costs??? This is oxymoronic in my opinion.

Pedestrians and Cyclists claimed $37,067,000 in 2008 for road related accidents and they pay nothing specifically for this towards ACC! This makes any "user pays" argument quite specious. Why are they, as victims of road accidents and road users, not also asked to pay towards their own care and recovery? How many of the 8525 motorcycle claims are from people that also own cars and pay their own "subsidy"? Most I would suggest, with some owning more than one car. If we as a community are bearing the financial burden for sports injuries and for those whom work is medically not possible, without attributing fault or asking them to increase their contributions due to their "choice" to play sport or engage in heavy manual work, then why would we suddenly decide that a relatively small sector of the community should bear all costs associated with their "choice" ?

Why are we having to bail out ACC from its own mismanagement - The > $500,000 salary of the CEO seems to be taxpayer's money not well spent. ACC have failed the people of NZ who have relied upon them to provide this service, while exorbitant and mismanaged projects such as the Nelson office move add insult to injury! Perhaps out of control medical costs also need to bear some of this blame.

Incidently your link to ACC consultation results in "Page not found". Why would I state my case to an organisation that, very clearly, has its own interests at heart and not those of the people it is paid and equipped to serve? ACC has already stated it's position and preference, the public consultation is at best insulting and patronising.

Regards

Jed




Nikkikaye Haveyoursay wrote:
> Dear Jed,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your email regarding concerns regarding how ACC changes
> will affect Motorcycle users. Firstly, the National-led Government is
> determined to preserve and protect our 24/7, no-fault accident insurance
> programme.
>
>
> ACC is facing some real challenges. Its liabilities have ballooned to
> almost $24 billion - $13 billion more than its assets. This is
> unsustainable and unaffordable.
>
>
>
> In 2008/09, ACC paid more than $62 million to motorcycle riders but
> collected only $12.3 million in levies.
>
>
>
> The incidence, severity and cost of motorcycle crash injuries are not
> reflected in current levies. The cost of injuries in motorcycle crashes
> is about four times higher than injuries in other motor vehicle crashes.
>
>
>
> To help make up this difference the ACC Board has proposed a
> reclassification and an increase to the motorcycle levies. Even with
> the proposed increase in levies other motor vehicle owners will continue
> to pay $77 each to cross-subsidise motorcyclists.
>
>
>
> We want to have an open and honest conversation with the public as to
> how they want us to fund the shortfall. If the shortfall is not funded
> through an increase to motorcycle levies, it will have to be funded from
> somewhere else.
>
>
>
> The proposed increases are currently open to public consultation. We
> encourage motorcyclists and other motorists to have their say on this
> issue by making submissions to ACC by 5PM, 10 November.
>
>
> Following public consultation, the Government will receive advice from
> the ACC Board and make a final decision.
>
>
> If you still feel strongly on this matter, I would like to encourage you
> to have your say on the proposals, via this link:
> www.acc.co.nz/consulation
>
>
>
> Thank you once again for letting me know your views.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,

[buellbabe]

Utterly preposterous that these MPs are completely ignoring the ACTUAL facts and sticking to the lies that have been fed to them.

Me thinks some full page newspare ads are required to get the REAL stats out there for public viewing.
I will happily pay towards them.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

You are assuming all the motorcycles are registered for the entire year.

This is patently not the case. Many motorcyclists are only registering their bike for a certain part of the year and putting the rego on hold for a large proportion of it.

Something that will only get worse if these proposals go ahead.

I'll give you that...

[Damon]

is it me or is she quoting the same rubbish Simon bridges gave? whats the bet that National has given it's MP's a list of "Facts" to reply to our questions, may be a good idea to point out how stupid she is and suggest she actually does some fact finding of her own

[Cajun]

I've added you on FB mate Tony Ryall and Simon Bridges are usually in office on Friday, and I am looking for Friday off work due to other weekend commitments Fri and Sat night. Ironically my bike rego is on hold at the moment, but could look at borrowing someone's ....

I might go pay Simon a visit, if he is in his office on fridya

[MSTRS:Me]

Utterly preposterous that these MPs are completely ignoring the ACTUAL facts and sticking to the lies that have been fed to them.

Me thinks some full page newspare ads are required to get the REAL stats out there for public viewing.
I will happily pay towards them.

Nobody takes much notice of ads in newspapers. The best way to make an impact via that medium is front page headlines and TV 'breaking news'...Gareth Morgan and Sir Owen Woodhouse Expose ACC Lies.
How could that be arranged?

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Nobody takes much notice of ads in newspapers. The best way to make an impact via that medium is front page headlines and TV 'breaking news'...Gareth Morgan and Sir Owen Woodhouse Expose ACC Lies.
How could that be arranged?

Unfortunately the more i look into it the closer they come... and course I don't have all the info...

77 dollar arguement
$50,000,000 / $77 = 649,351 vehicles required.

Current fleet 2,788,938 I have no way of knowing how many only pay rego for part of the year as pointed out to me... but it is still a fabractation there is no way 2 million of the vehicles are off the road through out the year... but may there is as the recession and as it takes hold... and as I have said before we are no coming out of the recession we are in the eye of the storm and worse is yet to hit home

[MSTRS:Me]

Not with you there. Care to try again. In English? Te BDOTGNZA don't do interpretation that well.

[Squiggles]

77 dollar arguement

For whatever reason they're aiming to collect 252 million... why? They've yet to front up with the answers. A contact in ACC has suggested that $62million is possibly the cost of existing claims + this years worth of new claims and that $252mill may represent the actual cost of new claims (Only their thought, they werent able to get ahold of the Analysis team for their take on it)... Or maybe $252million is the amount needed per year till 2014 to put us in the green? Answers are needed and they're not forthcoming!

[KEN]

Ya go for it!!

[jed4czar]

is it me or is she quoting the same rubbish Simon bridges gave? whats the bet that National has given it's MP's a list of "Facts" to reply to our questions, may be a good idea to point out how stupid she is and suggest she actually does some fact finding of her own

Yep I would say you are correct ... This from Jaquie Dean (Nat MP for South Canty)

Dear Jed,


Thank you for your e-mail with your views regarding your concerns about the proposed changes to motorcycle levies.



The National-led Government is determined to preserve and protect our 24/7, no-fault accident insurance scheme.



The incidence, severity and cost of motorcycle crash injuries are not reflected in current levies. The cost of injuries in motorcycle crashes is about four times higher than injuries in other motor vehicle crashes.



To help make up this difference the ACC Board has proposed a reclassification and an increase to the motorcycle levies. Even with the proposed increase in levies other motor vehicle owners will continue to pay $77 each to cross-subsidise motorcyclists.



We want to have an open and honest conversation with the public as to how they want us to fund the shortfall. If the shortfall is not funded through an increase to motorcycle levies, it will have to be funded from somewhere else.



The proposed increases are currently open to public consultation. We encourage motorcyclists and other motorists to have their say on this issue by making submissions to ACC by 5PM, 10 November.



Following public consultation, the Government will receive advice from the ACC Board and make a final decision.



To have your say on the proposals go to www.acc.co.nz/consultation



Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns.



Regards

Jacqui Dean



Same different day