Stop blaming the roads

[MacD]

Interesting. I thought this thread was going to be about riders blaming the road for their "offs". I see quite a bit of that on this website too, it doesn't just come from the "authorities" you know...

[scumdog]

Common reasons young ones crash?

Not paying attention and "didn't notice it was a give way'
"didn't know I was doing that speed"
"I was changing the CD/getting a smoke" whatever
"I didn't notice the other cars has slowed down"
"I haven't driven on gravel before

The best one is the minor damage from nose-to-tails involving 'boy racer' cars - they often occur on their 'drag train' cruises 'cos they sit too low to see the tail-lights of the car on front - ah, such is the price of following trends (and too close!)

A lot won't admit the were too busy looking to see who was on the footpath 'admiring' them when they crashed or looking over the back seat talking or texting etc. but a lot happen like that.

Most have NO idea of the laws of physics (Jim) or vehicle dynamics etc.

Blame the roads? probably 90% of the time that response is an easy cop out for the fact they were speeding/not paying attention.
My (experienced)2 cents worth

[Toast]

yeah why punish the ones that are though!! There are a great many number of young people who have the intelligence and maturity to operate a vehicle safetly! Bloody hell I have met a great deal of people well over 20 that I wouldn trust behind the wheel, so why change the age! Change the testing and restrictions.

Hell yes...age does not equate to experience...training and experience does.I think the age limit is fine, but the fact that most muppets pay no attention to what is happening beneath their asses when driving a car (and to a lesser extent, some of those on bikes) is where the problem lies.

I also agree big time with the bit about modern cars hiding the failings of our roads...they also hide the failings of the people driving them. Most modern cars with even a mild sporting aspiration have so much grip that they can be thrown around with zero thought...but then when a panic situation comes up and some decent car control is needed...it's not there. (edit: as noted by somebody else, modern sportsbikes and tyres can hide failings in much the same way that modern cars do. Fair enough, except that the degree of electronic intervention that is present in modern cars is not yet in bikes...ABS, ESP, TCS, AYC, etc, etc. Moving from an '88 CBR250 to an '02 6R though, I can appreciate how much development in bikes and tyres has made up for rider deficiencies)

Training is what the system needs to promote...but putting those systems in place is nowehere near as easy as making an ad to blame people for making the little red needle creep past 3 digits.

[Ixion]

Some roads may be bad, but they always have been. And they were much worse in the past. I actually think that the problem is that roads are too *good*. Because a lot of roads nowadays are very good compared to what they once were (they are usually no longer windy, narrow, rutted, potholed etc) people, including bikers have come to rely on the road being "good". And come to grief when it is not. I ride as if all roads are "bad*.

Gravel is the classic example. I really cannot understand why people (bikes and cars) freak out if they encounter gravel. (Nor can I understand how it is possible to get a licence, with all the modern day complexity of the process, and not ever have driven on gravel. But that's another rant)

I would heavily *cut* the budget for roading - lets roads deteriorate a bit. A road that is *obviously* dodgy, and looks it, is actually quite safe. Drivers and bikers look at it and go "oh oh - better be careful". What is dangerous is the fast "safe" looking road. Because *NO* road is safe. All roads are dangerous

As to increasing the driving age, I suspect the 15 year olds , still at home with the olds , are much safer. And usually rely on Dad's car also. It is when they get a bit older, and have a job and some money, and start doing the "impress the chicks with my driving" stuff that they are at risk. But unless you increase the age to something ridiculous, like 30, it won't make any difference putting it up. Horse power / capacity restrictions might be a good idea, and shuldn't be any harder to police than on bikes. But will it really make any difference? Almost any modernish car can exceed the speed limit by 100%.

Be very careful here, beause the logical end point of *this* process is limiters fitted to all vehicles that restrict them to 100kph max. There was a letter in the 'Herald" the other day advocating this, and it would be technically simple to do. Want to go there ? Didn't think so.

But I will go further. I think the whole issue is a cop out. Yes, people are killed on the roads. One day one of them may be me. And some people dear and close to me have been killed on the roads. That's life. Life is dangerous. People die.

Yes, young kids kill themselves in fast cars. That's tragic, but it's life. Kids have always killed themselves one way or another. The urge to put life in danger is a normal part of growing up, it's only when we grow old that we become wimpy and want to be "safe" all the time.Kids get killed because they deliberately do dangerous things. For a few , they lose the gamble with fate. We did the same when we were young. And no matter WHAT you do, kids will continue to seek out danger and take risks. And get killed. Yes, your kids. Live with the fact

Bikes are dangerous. Always will be. Cars are dangerous . Always will be . If you can't accept the very small danger inherent in both, then stay home. There is no such thing as a "safe road" .

This latter day fixation with "road peril" is the same sort of wussiness that makes parents drive strapping 14 year old kids to school. Because it's "too dangerous" for them to walk/bike/skate.

Harden up, New Zealnd.

We are turning into a nation of bleating whining wimpy wussy girl's blouses.

[scumdog]

Nicely summed up!!

[The Tazman]

I can't believe this still keeps coming up,I'm almost set to give up with exhaustion.

I'm with SPman,15 yr olds are fine,they don't jump in a high powered car and go apeshit straight away - they do that after they have gained confidence,then overconfidence.The the most important thing is to gain access to a powerfull vehicle,generaly out of reach for most young kids.Both my daughters were driving before 15,the younger got her learners on her 15th birthday - my wife and her drove to Wellington and back a couple of weeks ago,I was releived to hear my daughter did most of the driving.

As for blaming the road???? I...I...I feel a seizure coming on,I'm gunna back away real slow....I'll be back on monday and hope this thread is buried and gone....

Some of us are new to this and did not know this subject had been up loads of times before!!! I did not want people to get upset about it, just wanted to know peoples opinions.

Re. the age thing I feel that allot of how they are is down to the parents and how they are raised. Yes I have met some great 15 year olds but I am not convinced that is the norm. but I hope it is. The parent of one of the latest fatalities said " 6 offences in 2 years that's not that bad for a kid of his age"!!!!!!!!!!! and then followed it up by saying " he couldn't afford the fines so as any loving parent would, we helped him pay them"

That to me is a little worrying

Along with the fact that by mid December I think the figures stood at 30+ deaths on the road. This is way higher than in the UK where the country is smaller and has 15 times!! more people.

As I said these are just my observations and not meant to offend anyone. I am open-minded and will always listen to other people’s point of view.

Thanks to you all for your feedback.

[The Tazman]

Very well summed up

[MSTRS:Me]

Roads are NOT dangerous. It is the users on them. This link was meant in the vein of a PT but not so sure now.http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...06&postcount=2

[Motu]

Some of us are new to this and did not know this subject had been up loads of times before!!! I did not want people to get upset about it, just wanted to know peoples opinions.

Thanks to you all for your feedback.

Go to anyone of the earlier ''I binned my bike on gravel'' threads and you'll see me pushing my case,I feel very strongly about people riding with their eyes shut and then trying to blame something/someone else,it makes me very angry to see this copout attitude.But I must admit I'm kinda proud of the members lately - there have been quite a few bins recently as you may have noticed - oh,some have muttered about diesel halfheartedly,but on the whole most have taken it on the chin and said ''I fucked up''.With experiance comes maturity....for some - I may look mature,but am still a teen mentaly.

[White trash]

Go to anyone of the earlier ''I binned my bike on gravel'' threads and you'll see me pushing my case,I feel very strongly about people riding with their eyes shut and then trying to blame something/someone else,it makes me very angry to see this copout attitude.But I must admit I'm kinda proud of the members lately - there have been quite a few bins recently as you may have noticed - oh,some have muttered about diesel halfheartedly,but on the whole most have taken it on the chin and said ''I fucked up''.With experiance comes maturity....for some - I may look mature,but am still a teen mentaly.

Thought you were coming back Monday.......

[Ixion]

Thought you were coming back Monday.......

Eh. This is Monday. Isn't it. Uh - oh um now I understand why no-one else is at work. Oh um, hey forget all about this OK

[idb]

I'm all over the place on this one.
As I've got older my natural inclination is to advocate raising the age limit.
But if I think about it a bit more it goes my distaste of imposing blanket laws that affect everyone to protect idiots and wankers from themselves kicks in.
I don't think though that a CC or horsepower restriction would be unreasonable at all.
As for driver education, it could start with the media advertising. I recall some years ago that there was a campaign of "Brake on the straight before it's too late" meaning that when driving a a car you should get your braking done before you hit the corner and showed a car with all wheels locked up going straight through a corner. That's the only truly educative campaign that I remember - I stand to be corrected though.
It's all very well banging on about about the awful effects of bad driving and the financial penalties you face, why not show tips on safe and correct driving?
But please don't use Rap! Try Dr Seuss!

Randle was stunned, he could not take it in,
He had gone in too fast, he had started to spin,
But The Cat In The Back said "There's no need to fret,
Put aside all your worry we'll correct this spin yet,
Turn your wheels t'ward the winding and unwound we will be,
Turn your wheels in that way and soon you will see,
We'll undo your doing of uncontrolled whirl,
You'll save the day yet and you'll impress all the girls"
So Randle he did as the cat had instruct him,
He saved all involved and the the girls, impressed, f****d him.

It doesn't hurt to put a bit of sex in there!

[MSTRS:Me]

Randle was stunned, he could not take it in,
He had gone in too fast, he had started to spin,
But The Cat In The Back said "There's no need to fret,
Put aside all your worry we'll correct this spin yet,
Turn your wheels t'ward the winding and unwound we will be,
Turn your wheels in that way and soon you will see,
We'll undo your doing of uncontrolled whirl,
You'll save the day yet and you'll impress all the girls"
So Randle he did as the cat had instruct him,
He saved all involved and the the girls, impressed, f****d him.

It doesn't hurt to put a bit of sex in there!

[Clockwork]

I seem to be the only person here who can find fault with our roads. Fine, but I wish the authorities would stop using our road toll per-capita to compare us with other countries that have significantly safer roads.

[MSTRS:Me]

other countries that have significantly safer roads.

Subjective. It is what is done on the roads that makes them safe or dangerous.