Thank you Slippery Nick, please can we have some more?

[oldrider]

I'm uncomfortable belonging to an organisation that claims "rights" on behalf of its members. I'm uncomfortable with an organisation that uses the term "rights" in its title. I'm uncomfortable with an organisation that uses the term "rights" in its charter. There's no "problem". I've experienced first hand and personally the negative results of allowing an organisation to run geographically separate chapters and then expecting National consensus.

Personally I'd prefer that chapter structure dismantled and a National organisation taking its place with a paid executive, rather than thousands of dollars going in separate directions without a cohesive financial plan. The BIKOI has informed bikers in general about how the Government works and that knowledge needs to be collated and used as leverage for future actions.

You know, if I was a Nick Smythe or such like, looking for a soft defenceless target that I could use as a whipping boy (in order to create a circus of distraction, while got about my business undistracted) I could not think of a better target than the motorcycle fraternity has shown it's self to be!

I suppose NS should be congratulated rather than condemned but then again I am a motorcyclist first!

NS must be sleeping soundly at night!

[NONONO]

Surely the notions of rights and responsibilities are firmly rooted in the concept of citizenship? Not an idea that I consider past it's use by date, not yet.
Citizenship is one concept that policy wonkers dislike but have to take seriously.

[James Deuce]

Now hang on a minute

I'm allowed a personal opinion, right?

I've also seen the public relations disasters generated by fractured "leadership" from BRONZ in the late '80s, early '90s and it wasn't pretty. Protest actions where chapter leaders stood up in front of pollies and aired dirty laundry publicly.

I'm for a more cohesive front, not against. I'm arguing that the leadership and message needs to be tightened up, not allowed to mutate throughout a regional structure.

[NONONO]

Sorry mate, thought this was a conversation, not trying to bag your opinions.
we got me you and John having a sensible discussion, maybe this aint the place for such things

[James Deuce]

Surely the notions of rights and responsibilities are firmly rooted in the concept of citizenship? Not an idea that I consider past it's use by date, not yet.
Citizenship is one concept that policy wonkers dislike but have to take seriously.

Not in NZ. Not in any Westminster Parliamentary system. The Bill of Rights is a joke and has been since the "leader" of the "free" world dragged the rest of Western Civilisation into a sub-optimal path of military/economic enforced redress against an organisation with no fixed address. Several points of law in NZ step around what the UN regards as the basic building blocks of individual human rights.

What we need for bikers is a thoroughly modern response to imposed and impending legislation reducing our freedoms and that means succinctly highlighting the economic and vote cost of ignoring a lobby group.

[crazyhorse]

Not in NZ. Not in any Westminster Parliamentary system. The Bill of Rights is a joke and has been since the "leader" of the "free" world dragged the rest of Western Civilisation into a sub-optimal path of military/economic enforced redress against an organisation with no fixed address. Several points of law in NZ step around what the UN regards as the basic building blocks of individual human rights.

What we need for bikers is a thoroughly modern response to imposed and impending legislation reducing our freedoms and that means succinctly highlighting the economic and vote cost of ignoring a lobby group.

What he said

[NONONO]

Sounds like you're saying the only route is to play their game, by their rules. But surely that simply strengthens their hand? So I would return to my notion of participatory democracy, otherwise known as the get off your arse and do something model. For me the alternative of centralising decision making and policy by a "legislated professional group" is simply playing their game with their ball. The pluralist model is central to a Westminster style government and only loses it's power if apathy is the norm, otherwise known as the let somebody else do it model.

[oldrider]

Now hang on a minute

I'm allowed a personal opinion, right?

I've also seen the public relations disasters generated by fractured "leadership" from BRONZ in the late '80s, early '90s and it wasn't pretty. Protest actions where chapter leaders stood up in front of pollies and aired dirty laundry publicly.

I'm for a more cohesive front, not against. I'm arguing that the leadership and message needs to be tightened up, not allowed to mutate throughout a regional structure.

Actually, Jim is right, that's why BRONZ was just idling along and not a force when this ACC business broke out, it had suffered serious past problems.

Though they were rallying their forces (mainly in Auckland) it appears that many of the weaknesses are still yet to be addressed.

Sorry mate, thought this was a conversation, not trying to bag your opinions.
we got me you and John having a sensible discussion, maybe this aint the place for such things

This is as good a place as any but true, it could be an interesting subject over a pint, a coffee or whatever!

[James Deuce]

A pint sounds like the go, and a trip to the South Is. never needs an excuse.

[Ixion]

..

VMCC has a bigger membership in Wellington than BRONZ, which is why I mentioned them earlier. You guys who keep talking about joining, really do need to.

Maybe the fact that BRONZ Wellington is only a few weeks old might have some bearing on that ?

Even BRONZ is a loose unit as all the areas are independent of each other!

Uniting motorcyclists has been described on KB as like herding cats and I think that is a true fit!

There used to be a BRONZ National, to agree policy and such. It died in the early part of this century (about the same time as BRONZ Wellington). There are plans to resurrect it now that there are actually a reasonable number of regional BRONZs.

However experience has shown that a purely national organisation would quickly wither on the vine. Apart from regional feuding (does anyone believe that Auckland would let someone in Wellington tell them what to do?), it goes against the whole biker participatory thing. National bodies work OK for groups that just want to pay a sub and don't care if they have a voice or not. Like the AA. But a biker organsiation can never survive like that , we just don't have the numbers. We have to be able to make a noise, to command a presence , which means bikers physically turning out. And that will never happen with a nationally based organisation.

BRONZ doesn't represent all motorcyclists, not by any stretch of the imagination. .

BRONZ doesn't actually claim to represent ANY motorcyclists. It's a lobby group, not a representational group. Think, sort of like Greenpeace (who do they represent?) , but sane.

Despite it's apparent or claimed failings, if BRONZ had not been in existence, who or what other organisation would have been there to pick up and carry our cause when NS began his errant lying onslaught!

Though I say it as shouldn't, up to the BIKEOI! stage, things would probably have happened much the same with or without BRONZ. BRONZ actually stole the BIKEOI!'s thunder a bit. BRONZ Auckland organised the Northern ride, but that could have been just as well done with a northern regional organiser.

But, from BIKEOI! on is where a BRONZ-like organisation is needed. Politicians, and media and such like HATE dealing with people that aren't part of an "official" organisation. In the early stages of the protest when the media were working out who was what, they would ring me up, and the first two questions ALWAYS that they asked were "What is your organisation and what are you in it?" ; and "How long has your organisation been in existence". The difference in credibility between "BRONZ, an incorporated society blah blah, President, we've been going since 1992", and "I'm just some guy on the Internet, we started up a forum yesterday", is beyond measure. An "official" organisation gives credibility and official presence. Not saying that's the way the world SHOULD work, just that that's the way it DOES work. And please remember, this is the BEGINING of the campaign. There's a lot of ground to cover in the next 22 months.

All of which being said , I'm wondering somewhat if the wonderful invention of the Innernettubes hasn't maybe made traditional groups rather redundant. I think that cyerspace did more for BIKEOI! than meatspace myself. Though given that bikers are nowadays mostly pretty old, and old people (present company gloriously excepted) don't cope well with cyber, we may need to wait a generation to see if that paradigm will fly.

.. I've experienced first hand and personally the negative results of allowing an organisation to run geographically separate chapters and then expecting National consensus.

Personally I'd prefer that chapter structure dismantled and a National organisation taking its place with a paid executive, rather than thousands of dollars going in separate directions without a cohesive financial plan. ..

Sort of like the AA , hm ? Personally I think a national organisation without regional presence would die very very quickly. And where are the "thousands of dollars" to come from to pay this paid executive ?

I've also seen the public relations disasters generated by fractured "leadership" from BRONZ in the late '80s, early '90s and it wasn't pretty. Protest actions where chapter leaders stood up in front of pollies and aired dirty laundry publicly.

..

Do you think perhaps your personal traumatic experience then is unduly colouring your present thinking?

No it won't.

Professional lobbying is just that. You need a decent constitutional lawyer, a PR whiz, and an admin person or two who can juggle frantically without looking stressed and you need to pay them enough to keep their interest piqued.

Organisations like BRONZ can provide human capital to a professional lobby group to make a public point as required, but a professional lobby group needs to be researching and releasing data on a daily basis and needs to be unfettered from the political ideology that tends to dominate the thinking of Interest groups with the word "Rights" in their name. They need to be looking for angles in unlikely places and convincing organisations like BRONZ or VMCC to support certain campaigns over others.

And do you have a spare million dollars to fund such an organisation? , Nor do I. In the absence of a philanthropic millionaire , shall we all just sit on our hands and weep?

And why should "organisations like BRONZ" provide "human capital" to "make a point" for this remote and abstract professional lobby group?

Especially as your vision of this lobby group has no interest in protecting the rights of that "human capital". I don't do cannon fodder for QUANGOs myself, and I don't think many bikers would. I support BRONZ because it does just that . It sticks up for my rights as a biker when someone wants to trample on them. Not interested in paying for some "professional lobby group" that doesn't give a stuff about said trampling.

Actually, your "professional lobby group" already exists. It's called the AA. Isn't it doing a wonderful job ?

[shrub]

When I say "proper" I mean with professional lobbyists, lawyers, marketing folk, commercial fundraisers, and PR folk. Don't get me wrong, BRONZ is doing good work, but they are an amateur organisation. I don't mean that in a derogatory way.

It isn't going to be supplied by individual biker donations. I'm not sure that we have the ability to support such an organisation in NZ - but if we did, it would be good.

I hope that makes sense without knocking BRONZ. That is not my intent here.

I tend to agree with you. We need a degree of urgency, or in 12 months time we will have a safety programme given to us by people who have no idea about motorcycle safety, and we'll be told about the next raft of ACC increases etc. I have worked in marketing and PR for many years, and I know what needs to be done, and I don't see BRONZ doing anything specific apart from protest rides, which, in my professional opinion, is not what needs to be done now.

The Bikoi was important and effective in that it informed the political elites of the degree of popular dissatisfaction with the levy increases, but repeating it is futile. Hell, there was a 1200 bike ride in ChCh a few weeks ago that was ignored by the media and my guess is Slippery Nick had no idea it happened.

I have several concerns about BRONZ, including that they are not high enough profile - they were largely ignored before the levy increases. I worked in a bike shop for 2 years and never heard one word about BRONZ or anything they had done or planned to do. And I personally think the ACC levies are a very minor issue when you take into account the number of motorcyclists needlessly killed or injured every year.

I also believe they are too passive - since the ACC levies were announced, what have BRONZ done or said? If you look at their website, there are a few ride days and training days and a charity run listed. Nothing else beyond a statement that they are not happy about the new levies.

I also think their image is wrong. The day has come when we need guys in suits with journalism, marketing and law degrees batting for us. We need people like Charley Lamb conducting research to give our arguments substance and men and women who know their way around law, media and politics, because that's where the fight is going to be.

And there are 100,000 motorcycles registered in NZ and 18,000 people registered here. We are big enough to have a professional body representing us in the same way, say, the blind do. I think we need to involve the motorcycle industry - there are nearly 20 bike and accessory shops in ChCh alone, and all of them have a vested interest in motorcycling being higher profile and safer. Add to them importers, distributors, training companies, hire companies etc, and there are a lot of businesses dependent on the ongoing viability of motorcycling.

And I haven't even mentioned the clubs.

We need to do something, and while BRONZ are the incumbent, I think they need to show us what they're going to do and why they should be the group taking us into the future, or maybe it's time for a new group.

[Ixion]

..

We need to do something, and while BRONZ are the incumbent, I think they need to show us what they're going to do and why they should be the group taking us into the future, or maybe it's time for a new group.

Well, actually, unless you are a paid up member, no, they don't need to show you anything whatsoever.

If you are a member, go to the meetings. And/or sign up for newsletters.

And of course, you, like anyone else, may start as many other new groups as you wish, whenever you wish. I await announcment of the details and progarm with interest.

[shrub]

Well, actually, unless you are a paid up member, no, they don't need to show you anything whatsoever.

If you are a member, go to the meetings. And/or sign up for newsletters.

And of course, you, like anyone else, may start as many other new groups as you wish, whenever you wish. I await announcment of the details and progarm with interest.

But why should I pay my money and join? Are you telling me that they have plenty planned, but are keeping it to their members only? I thought they were an organisation that acted for all motorcyclists, not just members and maybe if they had a higher profile (and a branch in ChCh) more people would join.

[Ixion]

But why should I pay my money and join? Are you telling me that they have plenty planned, but are keeping it to their members only? I thought they were an organisation that acted for all motorcyclists, not just members and maybe if they had a higher profile (and a branch in ChCh) more people would join.

I am not telling you anything.Nor is there any particular reason why you should "pay your money and join". Those who do, invariably do so for reasons that have little of self interest.

BRONZ acts in what , in the opinion of its duly elected officers (guided by direct input from FINANCIAL members) , is the best interest of motorcycling (note the distinction between motorcycling and motorcyclists).

That opinion is based on the input of FINANCIAL members, tempered by the experience and judgement of officers. Who may of course be challenged , and replaced by the votes of FINANCIAL members.

Opinions of non members are certainly taken into account. As are those of Mr Nick Smith, Mr John Judge and Mrs Madge Entwhistle. BRONZ does not however render an account of its proceedings , nor think it requisite to justify its actions to Messrs Smith or Judge, nor to Mrs Entwhistle.

As to a Christchurch branch : feel free to step up to the plate and set one up.

[shrub]

As to a Christchurch branch : feel free to step up to the plate and set one up.

I'm certainly open to doing that and would do it if I believed that it was the best solution. Do you have a response to the comments I made a post or two ago? I believe they are valid criticisms of the status quo and would be interested in yuor response as you seem to be reasonable and intelligent.