A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

[The Stranger:Me]

So you saying that because there is a lack of Government run programmes that means the Government is opposed to increased driver/rider training. That's preposterous.

That's like saying because there is no Government run tyre shops the Government doesn't support the use of tyres.

What the fuck? The govt opening tyre shops isn't going to help road safety one iota. What the fuck are you smoking?

There is no doubt that JD can put forwards a very persuasive argument for his points of view.

JD has put forward the assertion that the "Government(tm)" is opposed to increased driver/rider training - because it creates complacent drivers/riders. I don't agree. In fact, I think it is laughable.
Perhaps you might like to put forward an argument as to why you think the Government is opposed? I can't say I have ever seen anything to make me think that any NZ Government has adopted this viewpoint.

So they spend millions and millions of dollars ostensibly to keep us alive and hadn't considered driver training as a possiblitiy? Really? All it will take is for you to suggest it, I'm sure they just hadn't thought of it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that because there are no accidents the training is better in every regard?

No. Is that what you were trying to say when you said
"To be fair, track day training is generaly much safer because of its predictablity."?

You indicated trackday training is "generaly much safer because of its predictablity" what is the basis for your assertion. Do you have some statistical evidence to back that up?

I could create a training program for riders. I could advise them not to put the ignition key in their motorcycle. Chances are my training program would have very few ambulance call outs. Does that suddenly make it a great all round training program. No.

By all means, only do road based training if that is what you feel is best for you. Personally I think we'll turn out better more well rounded riders by exposing them to a larger number of experiences, and that includes on-track training.
Everyone is free to decide for themselves. Those that agree with me will simply turn up to track based training programs and road based training programs.

Who said anything about only doing road based programs - oh thats right you. Dude you're arguing with yourself, it's not a good look.

[onearmedbandit]

To see what JD etc are talking about in action, one particular 'road safety' message advertised on TV currently comes to mind. The ad depicts the scenario of a driver losing control by clipping the shingle on the inside of a corner and then becoming 'one' with a truck. And what does this ad suggest we should do? Learn to drive better? Slow down? Take advanced driver training to save yourself? No. It promotes that you buy a car with 'dynamic stability control', because this type of car will save you and itself from crashing. I'm not even going to begin ripping this ad apart on every level, it does a good job of it itself.

[The Stranger:Me]

Unfortunately this is too true. Most entry level riders (where I conduct the majority of my teachings) only want to do the bare minimum just so they can 'fast-track' their licence so they can get a larger capacity machine. I would like to see the NZTA revamp the system to a 'logged hours' (just like in attaining a PPL - pilots licence) situation with an instructor but also include this for cars as well.

If by instructor you mean a licensed instructor that'll never happen. Not enough instructors and they're not in enough places. The rural sector (and you would be amazed at the sway they hold in these matters) would effectively stomp on that one.

[shrub]

To see what JD etc are talking about in action, one particular 'road safety' message advertised on TV currently comes to mind.

And then there is the one where the guy is driving through the burbs in his Corolla and comes round a corner to find someone getting out of the car and shows how ugly things get at 60 kmh compared to 50 kmh. It never mentioned him tailgating other drivers or the sheer stupidity of not watching round a corner.

There have been some interesting (and disheartening) comments about advanced training, and I'm afraid they're probably right. Our Leaders have decided that speed and alcohol are the two areas that they will target in their attempt to be seen to do something because they are cheap amd easy to measure results. If they're flat out chasing speeders they don't need to worry about the guy changing the CD and taking his eyes off the road for several seconds at 100 kmh. He's really hard to prosecute, so let him go. "We're doing our bit - we issued 78787 speeding tickets last year".

And in the meantime people die.

[Squiggles]

If by instructor you mean a licensed instructor that'll never happen. Not enough instructors and they're not in enough places. The rural sector (and you would be amazed at the sway they hold in these matters) would effectively stomp on that one.

And if solutions were found to counter this?

[The Stranger:Me]

And if solutions were found to counter this?

Well, then you'd have to get the instructors working for nix, or near nix so as it was affordable.

[PrincessBandit]

Personal responsibility from every road user is the only way to decrease* accidents and deaths. Unfortunately until the MAJORITY of riders and drivers and cyclists take this on board nothing will change. More legislation and regulation will only "dumb everything down" (not unlike OSH being such a major pita these days with every little cut or stubbed toe being 'preventable'). You see it with vehicles - the more safety features, the more idiots will push the envelope 'cause they're in a "safer" car.
However if people can suck the lemon, be mature enough to use the road with commonsense and leaving their ego at home, then I don't see why there couldn't be a huge change in direction of statistics.

* I did not say eliminate accidents and deaths

[Squiggles]

Well, then you'd have to get the instructors working for nix, or near nix so as it was affordable.

Its a can of worms but, imo, if licensing cost more there'd be more respect for having one being a priviledge. Some people will be inconvenienced, but where do we draw the line?

Actually (For interests sake), Where does a west coast dweller go to do their scratch and win?

[Mikkel]

and keep an eye out for EVERYTHING around you!

...you'd better because the locals sure as hell won't. If there would be one word to describe kiwi drivers (in general) it would be oblivious.

It is quite simple, people aren't taught to take it serious - thus they don't take it serious. Imagine we allowed airline pilots to have a similar attitude...

I think most riders consider themselves better than they really are

95% of all motorists consider themselves "average or above"...

While I agree that this attitude has a lot to do with the reasons why motorcyclists continue to crash, this way of thinking is almost hard-wired in us all from a young age, maybe even something we are born with. It is this culture that has brought mankind to where we are today, it is responsible for everything from space travel to Sir Ed climbing Mt Everest. I'm not saying I've got the answer, or even if there is an answer.

Yes, but Sir Ed didn't conquer Everest, NASA didn't get to the moon and Michael Schumaker didn't win races because they were blase about it. They accomplished that through a combination of hard work, deep understanding and utmost respect for their challenge. Now Mr. XR8 Bathhurst and Johnny Boyracer haven't had to work hard to get their license, they have little or no understanding of what actually constitute proper driving and they have no respect for their fellow motorists.

First thing to address is to make people realise that motoring is serious business. Making obviously flawed commercials and putting forward idiotic slogans is probably counter-productive in this regard.

The Govt does not support 'advanced' training because they believe that the resultant 'skilled' motorists will use that skill to drive/ride faster.

That sounds reasonable - at least when people don't have the skills they can't speed... or what? What can you do when faced with sheer idiocy like that?

There have been some interesting (and disheartening) comments about advanced training, and I'm afraid they're probably right. Our Leaders have decided that speed and alcohol are the two areas that they will target in their attempt to be seen to do something because they are cheap amd easy to measure results. If they're flat out chasing speeders they don't need to worry about the guy changing the CD and taking his eyes off the road for several seconds at 100 kmh. He's really hard to prosecute, so let him go. "We're doing our bit - we issued 78787 speeding tickets last year".

On that account I must admit I have always wondered how the police can justify doing speeding-enforcement using radar equipment while on the move - with one officer in the car. Honestly, his attention can not be fully directed towards the primary task at hand...

[YellowDog]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

I just don't agree that is is the problem or the culture.

Maybe we should all just take the bus, which would sort the problem. There's no point in us all riding in a line like we are on the bus.

Just got back from a jaunt down the Southern Motorway. Oops. Sorry it's not a motorway is it? Motorways have rules and regulations. It's a Freeway, that's what it is.

So on the Southern Freeway we have three lanes and three different speeds? No we actually have three lanes at 10 differing speeds. It's a free for all.

The guy I was following on the Silver SV was doing a great impreeion of a Bus in the centre lane. He then got fed up with being over taken from both sides so he boots it down the inside and overtakes 30 cars or so.

And why shouldn't he? He is just playing by the unwritten rules of the freeway.

We have no discipline and we have no enforcement. Just maybe that would be a good place to start. New road users have very little or no chace at all.

Speed Kills! Yeah right!

I suggest that it is poor standard road usage that actually kills.

[The Stranger:Me]

Its a can of worms but, imo, if licensing cost more there'd be more respect for having one being a priviledge. Some people will be inconvenienced, but where do we draw the line?

Actually (For interests sake), Where does a west coast dweller go to do their scratch and win?

We draw the line at 400 road deaths and we have no problems. It's the arsehole who drew the line at 300 that causes all this shit.
Piha? Go to Henderson to do your scratch and win.

[scumdog]

And then there is the one where the guy is driving through the burbs in his Corolla and comes round a corner to find someone getting out of the car and shows how .

Maybe the message is: "If you drive like the slack-jawed mouthbreathing cretins that clutter our roads and tail-gate and don't look ahead around corners you had better slow down so hopefully you're less likely to plough into objects that normal people would avoid without thinking about it"?

[p.dath]

As for track based training...I've never seen a road that is like a race track, so what good does finding my/bike's limits on a track going to do me on a road? When those limits are so much less on a road. Roads do not have the same room or surface or grip or runoffs or...or...or as a track does. You are fooling yourself if you think that track learned skills are the shizz on the road.

Your a mentor, so I have to give you credit for riding skills and experience that would greatly exceed mine.

I can only comment from personal experience (and your experience doing on track training is obviously different to mine). I feel much safer practising skills on a track where I know there are no dangers (or rather, there is a lot more predictability with regard to hazards). I much prefer practising counter-balancing, leaning, changing body positions, throttle control, looking where I want to go, and any other number of things on the track. The track lets me greatly extend my limits. Once I get back on the road everything feels much easier, as rather than riding within 80% of my limit at some particular point, I might now be riding at only 40% of my ability.

I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone else wanting to improve their skills to also attend track based training after my own personal experiences.

[Katman]

I just don't agree that is is the problem or the culture.

Maybe we should all just take the bus, which would sort the problem. There's no point in us all riding in a line like we are on the bus.

That's not the point I was trying to make.

I was refering specifically to group rides and open road riding (whether in a group or on one's own).

[Squiggles]

We draw the line at 400 road deaths and we have no problems. It's the arsehole who drew the line at 300 that causes all this shit.
Piha? Go to Henderson to do your scratch and win.

I meant Franz Josef or Fox by west coast dwellers.
Should we be happy with 400? Is that going to teach people the give way rules? To head check? We're heading for the stage where learners will approach an intersection and try to work out if they're the red or blue car from the scratchie (now online) test.