Can anyone tell me why bike shops only open for half a day on Sunday?

[FROSTY:Me]

I need 2 cars serviced at 11.30 tonight --you'll be there to do it ayee mate??

[merv]

The other advantage of a late night, is that if you go in and can't get what you need, you can reprogram your weekend, so it's not wasted. Whereas if you have to wait till Saturday morning, and then can't get what you need, the Saturday is sort of wasted. By the time you get home again it's getting too late to plan some other activity.

Yeah that's kinda what I'm saying too. If I get up on a Saturday planning to do bike stuff I don't get dressed in my tuxedo and if it turns to custard coz I can't get what I want there I am dressed like a biker doing nothing and the time is wasted.

As for demographics, I'm probably similar in age group to you Ixion, but what I face is being a short arse I need short fit clothes. No use trying on long length trou for example when I need the knees in the right place with armour etc. You can't just cut the bottom off like a pair of ordinary trou getting altered at the mall. Few bike shops cater for my fit. Motomail did have many short fit sizes - good on them.

[FROSTY:Me]

Guys I'm in an idustry where we are open 7 days a week. But if competition diddn't force me to be I wouldn't be. I'd be closed at least on sunday.
Things have totally spiralled out of control in this country in the "customer service" industry with people expecting to buy groceries for example at 10pm at night.
Yet moan about incrreased costs. Gosh darn it there are only 4.5 million of us.
Its not rocket science to figure out that if you have to pay staff to work 7 days a week then the money has to come from somewhere.
I'm sorry I don't buy into the whole 7 days a week will mean more sales. Proof of that is clear to see in the automotive industy, grocery industry etc. -same sales spread over a longer time
There always a bit of a shift if one (for example) supermarket opens later but then the competition matches them and its back to status quo except EVERYONE looses.
Think about this EVERY single person employed on a sunday costs the company $5000 per year (based on $13 an hour)
In my opinion we in New zealand have (and this is the sad bit) gladly given away one of the things that was great about this country--Our weekends.

[Brian d marge]

shudddup

you cant do that ,

Honestly next you will be working Christmas day

oh hang on I do that ,,, not good

Stephen

[Ixion]

I need 2 cars serviced at 11.30 tonight --you'll be there to do it ayee mate??

Yep. Going to cost you, but. Double time, charge out is $120/ hr minimum so that $240 and hour, three hour minimum , $150 call out and unlock fee. Dirt money, danger money, hazardous substances handling (all that petrol!), extra. call when you're ready to bring them round ($20 phone answer fee, plus phone time is chargeable)

[avgas]

shudddup

you cant do that ,

Honestly next you will be working Christmas day

oh hang on I do that ,,, not good

Stephen

+1
Why do I have to work during weekends? This is not fair!
Mabey the bike shop people are right - No work after 5, no weekend work.
Fuck I dream of a 40 hour week.............

[FROSTY:Me]

+1
Why do I have to work during weekends? This is not fair!
Mabey the bike shop people are right - No work after 5, no weekend work.
Fuck I dream of a 40 hour week.............

Farout I dream of a 6 day week and a 70hour week --honestly

[Robert Taylor]

Good points, well argued. I'll try to address them .

Firstly, it's not really about me. i'm just using my own experiences as an example. There are probably half a million of us who are not free during the 9-5 week. It's not just office workers- sales rep, truck drivers are on the road all day, but they have to stick to their territory. So they can't get to your shop.

I probably am more jaded than some. But , unlike many, I'm still idealistic enough to WANT a healthy profitable local bike trade. Many are less jaded but just don't bother. "can't get to the bike shop, never mind here's Trademe". And you'll never see them, and never hear from them why they don't buy from you.

All businesses have punters. When I was in pre sales we were trained to 'qualify" customers. But, todays punter may be tomorrows buyer, it's the job of a good salesman to turn the punter into buyer, if not today then in the future. And hopefully punters' mates, family etc. Yes, the trade does need to be more 'professional'. But not in a'suit' way.

Oily overalls, or jeans and polo are just fine. But, the motorcycle trade is really really bad at the one thing it absolutely MUST be really good at. Selling.

Not just taking the money from someone who has already made a purchase decision, but persuading him to buy (even when he only came in to look). And showing him that your (pricier) product is actually better value. And then upselling him, (or switch selling him); and selling in extras; and prospecting and getting the next sale (making sure he comes back to YOUR shop next time he wants something, and making sure that his contact details are on file, and that he's volunteered a couple of leads to follow up).

Now, this is all Salesman 101, and I imagine you're going to tell me "yes yes we know all that you are teaching your grandmother to suck eggs".

Why then, does it so very very rarely happen? There are a few shops that are good at it, but they are rare exceptions.

I will give some examples. Obviously they're based on my own experience, but i don'tr imagine other people would fare differently.

Couple of months ago I lost a glove(Arrgh. Why is it always the right hand. Anyone want a collection of left hand glubs?). OK, if I skip lunch I can just make it to the nearest (quite well known) shop and back in my lunch break.

Hm, where's the glubs. Oh, down the back. Ah, they're all mixed up. Winter, summer, cheap, dear. Oh and there's some more on the floor. I wonder how much these are they're not marked. These look OK, but the pack is sealed, I can't tell if they fit, and there's no sample to try. Finally pick a pair, cheapish, not quite what I wanted, but time is short. No-one's come near me in the 20 minutes or so, no-one else in the shop. Up to the counter, 'That's $X,' , pay, leave.

Fairly typical bike shop experience. And just look at the salemanship crimes in it.
Empty shop. Here's a customer. let's ignore him.
He's looking round , can't find something, let's ignore him.
He's looking at gloves, doesn't seem to have a definate plan in mind, let's ignore him
Oh, he's picked something cheapish, let's not bother to upsell him to a better (= higher margin) product.
He's at the counter, let's not mention our current promotions. And don't bother trying to prospect contact details. Or offer add ons. Or ask for leads. Or try to get him to come back again
(I'm ignoring the fact that the limited opening hours meant no time for browsing- and thus no time for extra sales for the shop).
It's not a exceptional scenario. Another.

I spent a year looking for a good jet style helmet (yes, ATTGAT treason, but if you ride a classic bike, you need a classic helmet). Stuff that has no time constraint, I'm willing to call into shops when I can. No luck finding exactly what I wanted (most shop people had never heard of them - not so knowledgeable, but, worse, they weren't interested in finding out. Here's a potential customer wants something, and is having trouble getting it. Let's not bother to find out what it is, or if other people might want it too, after all it's only an opportunity to secure a market niche) .

Finally decided I'd buy what was available as an interim. (I'm still looking for the right thing - Davida doesn't fit me well). Into shop. Ask question again, in case. Nope, only what's on the shelf (no interest in exploring further). Pick one, pay for it , leave.

Now, I just bought a retro helmet. The salesman made no effort to sell me goggles! Surely a no brainer. Or a scarf, or neck warmer (" Open face can be chilly , Sir. We have a very nice line of quality wool scarves, that would really set off the helmet"). Might have sold me one, my old one is pretty tatty. No attempt to sell me a jacket (" Can I show you our line of matching jackets. For such high quality garments, they're remarkably well priced, and would really complete the retro look"). Might have sold me one, it's on the shopping list. But worst of all, this was a Triumph agency. Triumph, big on retro, heres a middle aged guy buying retro gear, right in our demographic and obviously interested, but lets ignore this chance to get a hot prospect,just let him walk out without securing even an email address. I wonder why bike shops have a problem making money? Missed a chance to upsell, at least two extra sales, and a good prospect for future sales. Never mind, let's just complain how hard it is

I could give lots more examples. Couple of years ago, I walked around for a year, with $1000 in my pocket (literally), because no-one was interested enough to sell me some boots and leggings , until finally a decent salesman at Mt Eden Motorcycles actually did what a salesman is supposed to do : sold product. And got my $1000, and some repeat business.

Now, this doesn't fit with the "bike shop staff have to be highly trained". They're not, or not as salepeople anyway. And that's a really big problem, because it's the ability to actually sell that gives a meatspace shop an edge over the Internet. An Internet seller has very little ability to sell. He just displays his merchandise and takes an order. But in a shop, you can SELL. You can turn a $50 customer into a $200 customer. And secure repeat business for years. But it doesn't happen. The trade is just simply ignoring the one thing where it has a massive edge over the Internet.So what are those people highly trained at ?

Want more? I got more

Even shops that are way out in front of the pack, like Cycletreads (light years ahead, they have a web site , so I can see if what I want is in stock, and the last time I bought a tyre the guy actually upsold me to a more expensive one! Only time anyone's ever tried. And they're open when I can get there ). But, every time I've bought a tyre (lots), and had it fitted, they've gotten me to fill in a job form. Which has a space for email address. Which I fill in. But I've never had an email from them! No basic "Thanks for buying from us, we hope you are happy with your purchase". Costs nothing and cements a relationship. No "We're having a promotion, hope to see you " email. Nothing. They're handed a prospect list on a plate and they ignore it. And that's from the shop at the top.



I commented below to Mr Taylor, that maybe the customers he was seeing in his shop were those who , for whatever reason, didn't want to buy from the Internet. I think he thought I was taking a dig at him, but I wasn't. What I was meaning was that , the trade seems fixated about having to match the internet for price.

Now, firstly, in my experience, NZ prices are NOT much dearer than those on the net. Once you factor in freight, credit card charges, ripoff exchange rates. By and large, for "run of the mill" stuff, and parts, NZ works out maybe 10-20% dearer. BMW is a bit more, amybe 30%. I think that's mostly a reasonable price to pay for the intangible benefits of buying locally . IF the local shop would bloody well open so that I can get there to buy the stuff ! Specialised stuff, may be different.

Secondly, pitching on price is probably not a good model for NZ bike shops. Someone will ALWAYS undercut you. Surely it's better to try to secure business based on the other two purchase imperatives (remember? price, quality, convenience).

What I was trying to say to Mr Taylor was "the customers you are seeing are not shopping purely on price, or they wouldn't be in your shop. So sell them on quality (if possible) or convenience. They'll pay a premium price for it". You may find that if you put your prices up , but make the purchasing experience a better one, that you get MORE business. And more margin.

I think that most of the NZ motorcycle trade has wound itself into a cost cutting death spiral. Mr Taylor, somewhere, implied that his charge at rate is $90 per hour. Frankly, for a service as skilled and market specific as his, that's ridiculous. I'd expect to pay that for someone to do a basic oil change. For what Mr Taylor offers, I'd argue he should be charging double or triple that. Sure, some people will bitch, and some will go away muttering. But , invest some of that extra income in marketing, and in making the business attractive to purchasers, and net income should actually go up. And it's a less stressdful life! Motorcyclists nowadays are not all impoverished studants or minimum income strugglers. A lot of bikers have very high disposable incomes. The NZ trade is failing to harvest them. To do so they need a change of mind set. It would be a good thing for everyone if that happened.

$90 per hour is a figure that I plucked out of the sky, its not my charge our rate. Note that even ( for example )$40 per hour appears as a ''ripoff'' to many!

[Ixion]

$90 per hour is a figure that I plucked out of the sky, its not my charge our rate.!

I'm glad to hear it. The labourer is worth of his hire.

[Robert Taylor]

Guys I'm in an idustry where we are open 7 days a week. But if competition diddn't force me to be I wouldn't be. I'd be closed at least on sunday.
Things have totally spiralled out of control in this country in the "customer service" industry with people expecting to buy groceries for example at 10pm at night.
Yet moan about incrreased costs. Gosh darn it there are only 4.5 million of us.
Its not rocket science to figure out that if you have to pay staff to work 7 days a week then the money has to come from somewhere.
I'm sorry I don't buy into the whole 7 days a week will mean more sales. Proof of that is clear to see in the automotive industy, grocery industry etc. -same sales spread over a longer time
There always a bit of a shift if one (for example) supermarket opens later but then the competition matches them and its back to status quo except EVERYONE looses.
Think about this EVERY single person employed on a sunday costs the company $5000 per year (based on $13 an hour)
In my opinion we in New zealand have (and this is the sad bit) gladly given away one of the things that was great about this country--Our weekends.

100% on the money Frosty. We want all the trappings of the big economies but we simply lack people to make it work as well. Any negatives are exacerbated because tthere isnt enough population to ''buffer' against.

[Robert Taylor]

I can understand why crasherfromwayback felt the need to use expletives in his post, it basically comes from frustration, bought about by the unwillingness of some people to "see it from the other side".

I have thought if a better way to explain why, motorcycle shops are not open 7 days.

ahem......

The reason motorcycle shops (worldwide) are not open 7 days, is because if they do open 7 days, they don't actually make any more business.

What happens is, when you open 7 days, you simply spread the same business you made over 5.5 (or 6) days, over 7.

Now, think about that. Bike shops struggle as it is, and if they now have to pay staff for an extra day, for the same yearly gross income as they make only being open 6, then the whole industry just took a giant step backwards as far as
growth is concerned.

What about the bank? Why aren't they open even 6 days?

If you have to go to the bank for anything other than a statement, you have to take time off work to do it.

Is there a "Kiwibanker" website?..... I want to ask them why they aren't open 7 days, and while I am at it, I would also like to know why clearing a cheque takes 5 working days, the same as it did 30 years ago, and yet, I can send money all over the world in 24 hours......

Absolutely right, also NZ is way oversubscibed with motorcycle shops.

[Robert Taylor]

Ixion made a good point that not all motorcyclists are impoverished and go for the lowest price, or something to that effect. And that there are customers who are better off and want quality and service.
Contributors to this this website often assume that almost everyone is in the former category.

[Woodman]

One of the problems I see is that marketing (warehouse bunnings etc) is obsessed with price. Lowest is best and value means stuff all. The quality of products has gone down but the consumer guarantees act states that everything must be treated the same more or less. Mmargins are tighter so service has gone out the door and generally the consumer is unwilling to pay for good advice and service, and have got used to unknowledgeable part timers on weekends. The customer often will do the research for them before they choose what to buy, and more often than not will just purchase off the site where the research was done.
I don't blame the bike shops for not opening Sundays, yea maybe later on a saturday and a late night. They should be able to roster staff well enough so everyone gets a 3 day weekend once a month or so.
And no person who walks into your shop is a time waster. If they have cash in their pockets then it is your job to get into in your till.

[merv]

Ixion made a good point that not all motorcyclists are impoverished and go for the lowest price, or something to that effect. And that there are customers who are better off and want quality and service.
Contributors to this this website often assume that almost everyone is in the former category.

Yeah given that the average age of bikers is higher than it used to be and sales tend to be more in the larger bike categories (not counting scooters) these days there can't be a shortage of cash really. Just look on here (KB) how many of us have more than one bike in the garage, and even the ADV guys seem to want something big (except small guys like me) they are riding big KTM's or BMW's, not Honda XR200's any more.

[SS90]

Good points, well argued. I'll try to address them .

Firstly, it's not really about me. i'm just using my own experiences as an example. There are probably half a million of us who are not free during the 9-5 week. It's not just office workers- sales rep, truck drivers are on the road all day, but they have to stick to their territory. So they can't get to your shop.

I probably am more jaded than some. But , unlike many, I'm still idealistic enough to WANT a healthy profitable local bike trade. Many are less jaded but just don't bother. "can't get to the bike shop, never mind here's Trademe". And you'll never see them, and never hear from them why they don't buy from you.

All businesses have punters. When I was in pre sales we were trained to 'qualify" customers. But, todays punter may be tomorrows buyer, it's the job of a good salesman to turn the punter into buyer, if not today then in the future. And hopefully punters' mates, family etc. Yes, the trade does need to be more 'professional'. But not in a'suit' way.

Oily overalls, or jeans and polo are just fine. But, the motorcycle trade is really really bad at the one thing it absolutely MUST be really good at. Selling.

Not just taking the money from someone who has already made a purchase decision, but persuading him to buy (even when he only came in to look). And showing him that your (pricier) product is actually better value. And then upselling him, (or switch selling him); and selling in extras; and prospecting and getting the next sale (making sure he comes back to YOUR shop next time he wants something, and making sure that his contact details are on file, and that he's volunteered a couple of leads to follow up).

Now, this is all Salesman 101, and I imagine you're going to tell me "yes yes we know all that you are teaching your grandmother to suck eggs".

Why then, does it so very very rarely happen? There are a few shops that are good at it, but they are rare exceptions.

I will give some examples. Obviously they're based on my own experience, but i don'tr imagine other people would fare differently.

Couple of months ago I lost a glove(Arrgh. Why is it always the right hand. Anyone want a collection of left hand glubs?). OK, if I skip lunch I can just make it to the nearest (quite well known) shop and back in my lunch break.

Hm, where's the glubs. Oh, down the back. Ah, they're all mixed up. Winter, summer, cheap, dear. Oh and there's some more on the floor. I wonder how much these are they're not marked. These look OK, but the pack is sealed, I can't tell if they fit, and there's no sample to try. Finally pick a pair, cheapish, not quite what I wanted, but time is short. No-one's come near me in the 20 minutes or so, no-one else in the shop. Up to the counter, 'That's $X,' , pay, leave.

Fairly typical bike shop experience. And just look at the salemanship crimes in it.
Empty shop. Here's a customer. let's ignore him.
He's looking round , can't find something, let's ignore him.
He's looking at gloves, doesn't seem to have a definate plan in mind, let's ignore him
Oh, he's picked something cheapish, let's not bother to upsell him to a better (= higher margin) product.
He's at the counter, let's not mention our current promotions. And don't bother trying to prospect contact details. Or offer add ons. Or ask for leads. Or try to get him to come back again
(I'm ignoring the fact that the limited opening hours meant no time for browsing- and thus no time for extra sales for the shop).
It's not a exceptional scenario. Another.

I spent a year looking for a good jet style helmet (yes, ATTGAT treason, but if you ride a classic bike, you need a classic helmet). Stuff that has no time constraint, I'm willing to call into shops when I can. No luck finding exactly what I wanted (most shop people had never heard of them - not so knowledgeable, but, worse, they weren't interested in finding out. Here's a potential customer wants something, and is having trouble getting it. Let's not bother to find out what it is, or if other people might want it too, after all it's only an opportunity to secure a market niche) .

Finally decided I'd buy what was available as an interim. (I'm still looking for the right thing - Davida doesn't fit me well). Into shop. Ask question again, in case. Nope, only what's on the shelf (no interest in exploring further). Pick one, pay for it , leave.

Now, I just bought a retro helmet. The salesman made no effort to sell me goggles! Surely a no brainer. Or a scarf, or neck warmer (" Open face can be chilly , Sir. We have a very nice line of quality wool scarves, that would really set off the helmet"). Might have sold me one, my old one is pretty tatty. No attempt to sell me a jacket (" Can I show you our line of matching jackets. For such high quality garments, they're remarkably well priced, and would really complete the retro look"). Might have sold me one, it's on the shopping list. But worst of all, this was a Triumph agency. Triumph, big on retro, heres a middle aged guy buying retro gear, right in our demographic and obviously interested, but lets ignore this chance to get a hot prospect,just let him walk out without securing even an email address. I wonder why bike shops have a problem making money? Missed a chance to upsell, at least two extra sales, and a good prospect for future sales. Never mind, let's just complain how hard it is

I could give lots more examples. Couple of years ago, I walked around for a year, with $1000 in my pocket (literally), because no-one was interested enough to sell me some boots and leggings , until finally a decent salesman at Mt Eden Motorcycles actually did what a salesman is supposed to do : sold product. And got my $1000, and some repeat business.

Now, this doesn't fit with the "bike shop staff have to be highly trained". They're not, or not as salepeople anyway. And that's a really big problem, because it's the ability to actually sell that gives a meatspace shop an edge over the Internet. An Internet seller has very little ability to sell. He just displays his merchandise and takes an order. But in a shop, you can SELL. You can turn a $50 customer into a $200 customer. And secure repeat business for years. But it doesn't happen. The trade is just simply ignoring the one thing where it has a massive edge over the Internet.So what are those people highly trained at ?

Want more? I got more

Even shops that are way out in front of the pack, like Cycletreads (light years ahead, they have a web site , so I can see if what I want is in stock, and the last time I bought a tyre the guy actually upsold me to a more expensive one! Only time anyone's ever tried. And they're open when I can get there ). But, every time I've bought a tyre (lots), and had it fitted, they've gotten me to fill in a job form. Which has a space for email address. Which I fill in. But I've never had an email from them! No basic "Thanks for buying from us, we hope you are happy with your purchase". Costs nothing and cements a relationship. No "We're having a promotion, hope to see you " email. Nothing. They're handed a prospect list on a plate and they ignore it. And that's from the shop at the top.



I commented below to Mr Taylor, that maybe the customers he was seeing in his shop were those who , for whatever reason, didn't want to buy from the Internet. I think he thought I was taking a dig at him, but I wasn't. What I was meaning was that , the trade seems fixated about having to match the internet for price.

Now, firstly, in my experience, NZ prices are NOT much dearer than those on the net. Once you factor in freight, credit card charges, ripoff exchange rates. By and large, for "run of the mill" stuff, and parts, NZ works out maybe 10-20% dearer. BMW is a bit more, amybe 30%. I think that's mostly a reasonable price to pay for the intangible benefits of buying locally . IF the local shop would bloody well open so that I can get there to buy the stuff ! Specialised stuff, may be different.

Secondly, pitching on price is probably not a good model for NZ bike shops. Someone will ALWAYS undercut you. Surely it's better to try to secure business based on the other two purchase imperatives (remember? price, quality, convenience).

What I was trying to say to Mr Taylor was "the customers you are seeing are not shopping purely on price, or they wouldn't be in your shop. So sell them on quality (if possible) or convenience. They'll pay a premium price for it". You may find that if you put your prices up , but make the purchasing experience a better one, that you get MORE business. And more margin.

I think that most of the NZ motorcycle trade has wound itself into a cost cutting death spiral. Mr Taylor, somewhere, implied that his charge at rate is $90 per hour. Frankly, for a service as skilled and market specific as his, that's ridiculous. I'd expect to pay that for someone to do a basic oil change. For what Mr Taylor offers, I'd argue he should be charging double or triple that. Sure, some people will bitch, and some will go away muttering. But , invest some of that extra income in marketing, and in making the business attractive to purchasers, and net income should actually go up. And it's a less stressdful life! Motorcyclists nowadays are not all impoverished studants or minimum income strugglers. A lot of bikers have very high disposable incomes. The NZ trade is failing to harvest them. To do so they need a change of mind set. It would be a good thing for everyone if that happened.

To be honest Ixion, you do make valid points, and it would be wise for the industry to take note of them, and it is easier to do that when it is written in a clear form as you have done.

Clearly you are looking at from the point of view as someone with a reasonable disposable income, and perhaps I have adressed it from the point of view of having to deal with customers of smaller means in my examples, but, that said you still have to deal with them, their custom is just as important as someone with money, but, even a rich man will quite often wear you down with trying to cut a "deal on every dollar"

Trust me on that.

I agree that the "average" customer for a motorcycle has changed, and yes, the market must change as well, and, yes, it has not really changed as fast as it could, however, you can't forget that the market is oversubscribed as far as retail (and internet) shops are concerned.

I assure you that every single bike shop owner (not staff) would dearly LOVE to be able to have the shop running 7 days, because if the shop could justify it (profit wise), it would happen.
The fact remains, it just doesn't work.

Later open hours?

No, the whole place just turns into a "drop in centre", and very little work gets done.

I have seen it many times before.

Some people suggest rostered staff (with mid week off), sorry, no...... riding with your mates (who have normal jobs)...... they are working mid week, and, so is your wife...... where is the family time?

I appreciate that you want to support the shops, but you are saying in return that the shops need to support you, and be open at convenient times for you (and others), and that seems reasonable to me, but, it comes down to the realities of NZ business and it's small population.