"Motorcycles push the limits of speed, safety"

[jazbug5]

Got sent this by the education guy where I work.
Definately worth a quick look for newbies, and not a bad effort, I think.

[Wolf]

The Aussie restriction list looks interesting. There are some nice "substantial" bikes in there (i.e. not pissy, light-as bikes running on razor-blades that are at the mercy of every zephyr of air or grain of grit on the road). I dare say some of those >260cc bikes would have been a safer "trainer bike" than my old RX125.

There's no "magic pill" or panacea for the risks. I think a combination of restricted vehicles and proper training - for both cars and bikes - is necessary.

Cars, too, should have a "basic handling certificate" as a condition for a learner's licence - before the bastards are allowed to drive on the road, I want to be sure they won't be bunny-hopping along any road I'm likely to be on while they sort out the "complexities" of clutch and gears.

Safety and "Road Skills" courses should be compulsory - including getting to know the quirks of other road users (such as "this is how bikes corner, they're not pulling over to let you pass, you stupid arsehole!" and "buses stop at railway crossings" and "truckies ignore anything that does not have at least 12 wheels.")

[Waylander]

"truckies ignore anything that does not have at least 12 wheels."

Don't agree with that cause they have always been friendly to me when on the bike. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[campbellluke]

Sadly, I am still on my restricted license. But having a 4 cylinder 250 that can almost go 100 in 2nd gear was always on my mind before I had my learners.

If I had chosen a twin cylinder SR250 or GN250 or a single cylinder GZ250. I would have died by now. From the inability to overtake.

[madboy]

It's a very very tricky question to find an answer to - how to stop people dying on bikes? I would be interested to see the stats on why the accidents that killed them occurred. Fact is, crashes will happen, people will die. No amount of ABS, airbags, education, laws or whatever will change that in the foreseeable future. But I think with the right skills and attitudes, people will be in the best position to minimise crashes occuring, and also the results of these crashes.

Education helps people. Licence restrictions help some. Experience helps pretty much all. Attitude really helps, but how do you legislate for that?

I dare to suggest - egos are possibly responsible for a fair proportion of biker-caused crashes. And cager inattention is possibly responsible for a fair proportion of cager-caused bike crashes.

You can educate or legislate as much as you like, but until you succeed in changing the attitudes...

[erik]

Motorcycles push the limits of speed, safety
Government reports fatalities up 71 percent in just six years
By Kevin Tibbles
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:15 p.m. ET May 10, 2005
....
Others aren't so lucky. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says fatalities have accelerated 71 percent from 2,294 in 1998 to 3,927 in 2004....

What that article completely fails to mention is the number of motorcycles on the road in 1998 and 2004.
Going by the dodgy graph I found here: http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcyc...les-growth.htm

there were about 500,000 new motorcycle sales in the USA in 1998, and about 1,000,000 in 2004.

Divide the deaths in 1998 by the number of new motorcycles and multiply it by 100 to get the percent:
2,294/500,000 *100 = 0.46%
So if it was only people with new motorcycles riding, then 0.46% of them would have died in 1998.
Do the same with the 2004 figures and it turns out at 0.39% so the number of deaths per new motorcycle sales has actually decreased between 1998 and 2004!

An article I found while looking for statistics to back my argument gives a less biased/sensationalist picture of motorcycle mortality rates:
http://scienceweek.com/2005/sc050218-6.htm

One of the interesting points I thought I'd highlight was:

The analysis indicated that during 1983-2003 the overall prevalence of elevated blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) among motorcycle drivers who died in crashes declined; however, the peak rate of death among alcohol-impaired motorcycle drivers shifted from those aged 20-24 years to those aged 40-44 years.

Basically that means the same age group that was drinking and driving the most in 1983 is still doing it the most in 2004. You'd think in 20 years they might've learned something...

[Jeremy]

Are we really dropping like flies?

We all know that your likely to have an accident in your first 6 months. And we all know that a high proportion of motorcycle accidents result in the death of the rider.

However that doesn't say that motorcycles are more dangerous than cars. You could interpret that as: Since a high proportion of motorcycle accidents result in the death of the rider, therefore most accidents occur at high speed, therefore in most circumstances a motorcycle is less likely to have an accident at normal speeds.

Anyway:

Motorcycles riding a motorcycle is dangerous. No disput there.
Driving a car is just as dangerous.

Hit something at 200km/h and your dead. Same at 150km/h. You might survive if your lucky at 100km/h. Or you might wish that you didn't.

"Government reports fatalities up 71 percent in just six years", is this another way of saving that the number of people riding bikes has increased? I'd expect that if there was a 200% increase in the number of people driving cars there'd be a 200% increase in the number of fatalities.

How about a truely fair test. Take a motorcyclist who's spent a whole year riding, and compare them to someone who's been driving for a year.

I'd say that the average motorcyclist could cope with watching 4 lanes of traffic at once, at motorway speed. And could easily pick out those who are most likely to just turn into his lane unexpectedly (Clue: It's anyone who has dings anywhere on their car, or people who obviously couldn't afford the car they're in [less likely to do something stupid if they paid for their own car], or the courier vans [PACE are the worst]). The rider would know nearly exactly how long it took to brake in various conditions. Knows how to deal with locked wheels. Is always looking for an escape path. If push came to shove the motorcyclist could probably survive travelling at over 200km/h for a while without having an accident.

Can the same be said for the person driving the car? How often do they have to deal with people who think that "I didn't see them" is an excuse?

You have to discount people in the first 3 months, the idiots and those for whom a bike is a toy, as we'd say in stats they're just outliers and aren't a true representation of the general population.

[Sutage]

Theres lies.

Theres damn lies.

Then theres statistics.

[Waylander]

Theres lies.

Theres damn lies.

Then theres statistics.

Yep I think someone on here said it a while ago that statistics don't count cause someone can make them say whatever they want.

[jazbug5]

Ha. Me old dad always did say.. well, he still does. Anyway, he ended up as a college lecturer before he retired and used to always recommend this book.
And people ask where I get my cynicism from...

[XP@]

Here is an idea we can do. Set up days where the more experianced riders ( I say this becouse some young guys can teach the older folks a thing or two) get together with a bunch of newbs and teach them all the safty stuff. It would mainly be for people on this site to learn more but if we put up a few fliers at the shops and the riding course places people will see it and probably come along. Not a full fix and it would require people on here to give up some of thier free time but it would help keep alot of accidents from happening. It could be something kinda like how the track days help to teach how to ride on a track and such. Could do it a bit like Feint's noob ride the other week. Just a basic idea if anybody has any suggestions for it I'm listening.

Honorable suggestion. However if you look at statistics from the HURT report, cba linking to it, we would be classed as "Friends". The stats from that report show a high percentage of riders who are trained by friends crash, higher than riders who learn from books. So would we really helping them?

What might work would be organising some training sessions with good instructors. I had the pleasure of following a couple of bikes down Grays road (twisty low traffic) the other night. Their riding was sooo smooth, not fast but bloody quick. It got me thinking I would like their instructor, but how? There is no-way they would let me in to their club, and I wouldn't want to ride a white bike anyway... I now have the police instructors email address, just trying to work out how to get him to give some KB'rs a few tips... suggestions?

Another positive step would be to add a forum here called "Safety" and con an experienced instructor in to moderating it.

Failing all three it is only about $1000 to add an 'I' to my licence...

[Waylander]

Honorable suggestion. However if you look at statistics from the HURT report, cba linking to it, we would be classed as "Friends". The stats from that report show a high percentage of riders who are trained by friends crash, higher than riders who learn from books. So would we really helping them?

What might work would be organising some training sessions with good instructors. I had the pleasure of following a couple of bikes down Grays road (twisty low traffic) the other night. Their riding was sooo smooth, not fast but bloody quick. It got me thinking I would like their instructor, but how? There is no-way they would let me in to their club, and I wouldn't want to ride a white bike anyway... I now have the police instructors email address, just trying to work out how to get him to give some KB'rs a few tips... suggestions?

Another positive step would be to add a forum here called "Safety" and con an experienced instructor in to moderating it.

Failing all three it is only about $1000 to add an 'I' to my licence...

That's why I'm gonna be looking into what is required to become a certified instructor. And the majority who have been taught by friends are probably the same as the ones whos friends tell them they can go twice as fast up a ramp. If you get friends that actually know what they are talking about it can be quite helpfull. Kinda like how at a track day you have all those people to help crytique (sp?) your riding and lines and all that. I'm still not even sure if it'll go anywhere but I would rather try something to help make riders a bit more safty concious than just sit and complain about how the ACC levies and stuff are unfair becouse they are basing thier statistics on the uneducated. Know what I mean?

[Ixion]

..
What might work would be organising some training sessions with good instructors. I had the pleasure of following a couple of bikes down Grays road (twisty low traffic) the other night. Their riding was sooo smooth, not fast but bloody quick. It got me thinking I would like their instructor, but how? There is no-way they would let me in to their club, and I wouldn't want to ride a white bike anyway... I now have the police instructors email address, just trying to work out how to get him to give some KB'rs a few tips... suggestions?
..

When I was learning to ride I used to follow the local MOT bike cops around, Just tailing along behind them (if they shot off at speed I had to give up though, cos my BSA Bantam couldn't keep up with their Tbirds. Not even when I hotted it up ). Just watching how they rode figuring out why they did things trying to followtheir lines etc.

Those guys were farking good. Only got questioned once, following a snake (new one) , he suddenly zipped ahead, stopped and signalled me to pull over. "Alright what's your game, you've been following me for the last hour" Started to sound a bit nasty, I explained quite truthfully why, he sort of looked like he didn't quite know whether to believe me or not and settled for a "Well stop following me or you'll be in trouble" OK have a cow then dude. Just followed the regular snakes after that.

I learnt a hell of a lot from those guys.

[Odin]

Basically that means the same age group that was drinking and driving the most in 1983 is still doing it the most in 2004. You'd think in 20 years they might've learned something...

...learned something or died trying

[geoffm]

maybe cage drivers are getting worse?

I think they are. I used to ride a bike everywhere, until I got my first car in 1992. I had a company car (and a pile of tools to carry) for 7 years in my previous job, so there was no commuting on a bike any more.
This last christmas, it was back on the bike for a holiday job in the middle of the city.
Lets put it this way - the Westgate AA must have been doing a roaring trade in drivers licenses to the visitors of the inner city. I have never been carved up/ abused/ nearly taken out as much in my life as over those 3 months. it is noticably better back here in Christchurch.
Geoff