Give way rule to change

[Badjelly]

Reducing the number of things to check per driver.

Car truning left only has to look for pedestrians and bicycles.

Car turning right must just look for a gap.

Car behind car turning right must just look for an indictaor, and if there is an oncoming car.

Car behind car turning left must just slow a little to allow the car turning left to get out of the lane.

Every one follows the principle that the car going straight has right of way, and the car crossing a straight lane yields to all. Simple principles, no decision screw ups.

Very well said. You're a bit optimistic saying "no decision screw ups", but fewer, certainly.

[MSTRS:Me]

What's all this stuff about having less to look for? The only thing a left-turning driver has to look for (at present) is whether ther is someone just across the way wanting to turn right. If there isn't, only then need he be aware of what is around the corner to his left.

[Scuba_Steve]

Its not safe at all! For example if the left turner thinks that he is there early enough to go before the right turner, but the right turner thinks that he has right of way and wants to turn quickly to avoid traffic behind the left turner - you have a fuck up right there. In the line of oncoming traffic no less.

Left truners can hide cyclists and moorbikes to either side, making it more unsafe, and resulting in a car truning directly across tehir path - lethal!

Whereas if the law is that you just dont turn if there is no space, then the right turner has one thing to look at- a gap in thetraffic, and stays there until its ALL clear. One direction of focus.

The left truner also only has to worry about cyclists coming up on his left, and does not have three separate (and oppositely aligned) areas to focus on.

Cars behind the right turner basically also have single focus - the car in front of them. Its not rocket science.

Also the current rule is counter intuitive to human survival instincts - turning across an incoming car while relying on their knowledge of the rules does not inspire confidence, causes hesitation, and hence fuckups. But waiting and looking for a gap, and going when it looks safe to you, means less "two people in a passage" scenarios and smoother traffic flow.

but right here is my point you just pointed out its the driver NOT the rule, the left turners should be pulling into the curb (there is always a gap by law for this) which lets the straight through drivers/riders a clear path through, which also provides a block so the left turning vehicle can "shadow turn" as someone once put it & thus we have better traffic flow and less road rage with less chance of a right turning driver getting too impatient & trying their luck with the giant wheel on TV, as for cyclists on the left, well undertaking's been illegal for awhile now despite the fact alot of us do it and if you pulled into the curb like your supposed to there is no room for them to undertake anyways.

[jaykay]

Supporters of the present rules should ask themselves why no other country in the world is arguing to change - drive left, drive right - the question doesn't even arise.

Why would it?

There is a minority of occasions where the rule is useful, but it is far outweighed by the frequent times it is dangerous or just plain stupid.

Add to the fact that many drivers give way when they should be turning into lane shows that the present rules are crap.

The give way to the right rule has to go sometime, why wait any longer?

[Ixion]

Supporters of the present rules should ask themselves why no other country in the world is arguing to change - drive left, drive right - the question doesn't even arise.

Why would it?

There is a minority of occasions where the rule is useful, but it is far outweighed by the frequent times it is dangerous or just plain stupid.

Add to the fact that many drivers give way when they should be turning into lane shows that the present rules are crap.

The give way to the right rule has to go sometime, why wait any longer?

Well, since most of the world drives on the left, so that their left turn is our right turn and vice versa, it stands to reason that most of the world must in fact be doign as we are now. It is only UK and Australia that are out of sync. The rest of the world, and NZ are the same ,except that the opposite side steering wheel reverses the direction. So unless we are planning to change to keep right, then a change actually makes us aberrational not he reverse

[R-Soul]

Well, since most of the world drives on the left, so that their left turn is our right turn and vice versa, it stands to reason that most of the world must in fact be doign as we are now. It is only UK and Australia that are out of sync. The rest of the world, and NZ are the same ,except that the opposite side steering wheel reverses the direction. So unless we are planning to change to keep right, then a change actually makes us aberrational not he reverse

Actaully that assumption is incorrect.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_...t-hand_traffic

Most of the world has right hand side traffic. Only Birtain, ex-British colonies and Japan has left side traffic.

[Ixion]

Precisely so. We are told that we are the only people where left turning traffic gives way. Here, left turning means traffic turning into the nearside. But most of the world , their nearside turn would be a RIGHT turn. Which , we are told is what they do. Their nearside (right) turning traffic gives way. If all the kepe right countries did as is proposed for NZ they would in fcat be giving way when turning left. Which we are assured they are not.

[Pixie]

Controlled Chaos
European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs

By Matthias Schulz

Are streets without traffic signs conceivable? Seven cities and regions in Europe are giving it a try -- with good results.

"We reject every form of legislation," the Russian aristocrat and "father of anarchism" Mikhail Bakunin once thundered. The czar banished him to Siberia. But now it seems his ideas are being rediscovered.

European traffic planners are dreaming of streets free of rules and directives. They want drivers and pedestrians to interact in a free and humane way, as brethren -- by means of friendly gestures, nods of the head and eye contact, without the harassment of prohibitions, restrictions and warning signs.

A project implemented by the European Union is currently seeing seven cities and regions clear-cutting their forest of traffic signs. Ejby, in Denmark, is participating in the experiment, as are Ipswich in England and the Belgian town of Ostende.

The utopia has already become a reality in Makkinga, in the Dutch province of Western Frisia. A sign by the entrance to the small town (population 1,000) reads "Verkeersbordvrij" -- "free of traffic signs." Cars bumble unhurriedly over precision-trimmed granite cobblestones. Stop signs and direction signs are nowhere to be seen. There are neither parking meters nor stopping restrictions. There aren't even any lines painted on the streets.

"The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior," says Dutch traffic guru Hans Monderman, one of the project's co-founders. "The greater the number of prescriptions, the more people's sense of personal responsibility dwindles."

Monderman could be on to something. Germany has 648 valid traffic symbols. The inner cities are crowded with a colorful thicket of metal signs. Don't park over here, watch out for passing deer over there, make sure you don't skid. The forest of signs is growing ever denser. Some 20 million traffic signs have already been set up all over the country.

Psychologists have long revealed the senselessness of such exaggerated regulation. About 70 percent of traffic signs are ignored by drivers. What's more, the glut of prohibitions is tantamount to treating the driver like a child and it also foments resentment. He may stop in front of the crosswalk, but that only makes him feel justified in preventing pedestrians from crossing the street on every other occasion. Every traffic light baits him with the promise of making it over the crossing while the light is still yellow.

"Unsafe is safe"

The result is that drivers find themselves enclosed by a corset of prescriptions, so that they develop a kind of tunnel vision: They're constantly in search of their own advantage, and their good manners go out the window.

The new traffic model's advocates believe the only way out of this vicious circle is to give drivers more liberty and encourage them to take responsibility for themselves. They demand streets like those during the Middle Ages, when horse-drawn chariots, handcarts and people scurried about in a completely unregulated fashion. The new model's proponents envision today's drivers and pedestrians blending into a colorful and peaceful traffic stream.

It may sound like chaos, but it's only the lesson drawn from one of the insights of traffic psychology: Drivers will force the accelerator down ruthlessly only in situations where everything has been fully regulated. Where the situation is unclear, they're forced to drive more carefully and cautiously.

Indeed, "Unsafe is safe" was the motto of a conference where proponents of the new roadside philosophy met in Frankfurt in mid-October.

True, many of them aren't convinced of the new approach. "German drivers are used to rules," says Michael Schreckenberg of Duisburg University. If clear directives are abandoned, domestic rush-hour traffic will turn into an Oriental-style bazaar, he warns. He believes the new vision of drivers and pedestrians interacting in a cozy, relaxed way will work, at best, only for small towns.

But one German borough is already daring to take the step into lawlessness. The town of Bohmte in Lower Saxony has 13,500 inhabitants. It's traversed by a country road and a main road. Cars approach speedily, delivery trucks stop to unload their cargo and pedestrians scurry by on elevated sidewalks.

The road will be re-furbished in early 2007, using EU funds. "The sidewalks are going to go, and the asphalt too. Everything will be covered in cobblestones," Klaus Goedejohann, the mayor, explains. "We're getting rid of the division between cars and pedestrians."

The plans derive inspiration and motivation from a large-scale experiment in the town of Drachten in the Netherlands, which has 45,000 inhabitants. There, cars have already been driving over red natural stone for years. Cyclists dutifully raise their arm when they want to make a turn, and drivers communicate by hand signs, nods and waving.

"More than half of our signs have already been scrapped," says traffic planner Koop Kerkstra. "Only two out of our original 18 traffic light crossings are left, and we've converted them to roundabouts." Now traffic is regulated by only two rules in Drachten: "Yield to the right" and "Get in someone's way and you'll be towed."

Strange as it may seem, the number of accidents has declined dramatically. Experts from Argentina and the United States have visited Drachten. Even London has expressed an interest in this new example of automobile anarchy. And the model is being tested in the British capital's Kensington neighborhood.


I suspect it wouldn't work in NZ -too many smallcocks

[Ixion]

IU think it would work. ever noticed how much better traffic flows when power cuts take all the traffic lights out? OK, there will be pointsmen on a few of the intersections - but only a very few. I suspect that most of the regulation is counter productive - the result of the ever present control freak mind set of the bureaucrat.

[Pixie]

IU think it would work. ever noticed how much better traffic flows when power cuts take all the traffic lights out? OK, there will be pointsmen on a few of the intersections - but only a very few. I suspect that most of the regulation is counter productive - the result of the ever present control freak mind set of the bureaucrat.

Ok Ixion it's decided.We go for the Kontrolled Kaos option.

I would also like to remove all airbags in cars and connect the remaining trigger circuitry to fragmentation grenades for that extra bit of motivation.

[Ixion]

An excellent proposal. the only way to reduce the road toll is to break the mind set of so many road users, which says "OK, I'm going to crash, happens to everyone. But it's OK, I don't speed, and I have magic gear/air bags (fill in according to transport modality), so I'll be OK. Let's go". And replace it with one that says "EEKK - I **MUST** not crash. "

[cheshirecat]

As a foreigner to these fair shores i think the current system is just so consistant with the other road quirks - why change?. Spreading ball bearing gravel on the road after a reseal and not sweeping it off, that bridge outside Greymouth in the wet, Homer tunnel, gravel roads, all carefully positioned on principal state highways.

[Dim]

Controlled Chaos
European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs

By Matthias Schulz

Are streets without traffic signs conceivable? Seven cities and regions in Europe are giving it a try -- with good results.

"We reject every form of legislation," the Russian aristocrat and "father of anarchism" Mikhail Bakunin once thundered. The czar banished him to Siberia. But now it seems his ideas are being rediscovered.

European traffic planners are dreaming of streets free of rules and directives. They want drivers and pedestrians to interact in a free and humane way, as brethren -- by means of friendly gestures, nods of the head and eye contact, without the harassment of prohibitions, restrictions and warning signs.

A project implemented by the European Union is currently seeing seven cities and regions clear-cutting their forest of traffic signs. Ejby, in Denmark, is participating in the experiment, as are Ipswich in England and the Belgian town of Ostende.

The utopia has already become a reality in Makkinga, in the Dutch province of Western Frisia. A sign by the entrance to the small town (population 1,000) reads "Verkeersbordvrij" -- "free of traffic signs." Cars bumble unhurriedly over precision-trimmed granite cobblestones. Stop signs and direction signs are nowhere to be seen. There are neither parking meters nor stopping restrictions. There aren't even any lines painted on the streets.

"The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior," says Dutch traffic guru Hans Monderman, one of the project's co-founders. "The greater the number of prescriptions, the more people's sense of personal responsibility dwindles."

Monderman could be on to something. Germany has 648 valid traffic symbols. The inner cities are crowded with a colorful thicket of metal signs. Don't park over here, watch out for passing deer over there, make sure you don't skid. The forest of signs is growing ever denser. Some 20 million traffic signs have already been set up all over the country.

Psychologists have long revealed the senselessness of such exaggerated regulation. About 70 percent of traffic signs are ignored by drivers. What's more, the glut of prohibitions is tantamount to treating the driver like a child and it also foments resentment. He may stop in front of the crosswalk, but that only makes him feel justified in preventing pedestrians from crossing the street on every other occasion. Every traffic light baits him with the promise of making it over the crossing while the light is still yellow.

"Unsafe is safe"

The result is that drivers find themselves enclosed by a corset of prescriptions, so that they develop a kind of tunnel vision: They're constantly in search of their own advantage, and their good manners go out the window.

The new traffic model's advocates believe the only way out of this vicious circle is to give drivers more liberty and encourage them to take responsibility for themselves. They demand streets like those during the Middle Ages, when horse-drawn chariots, handcarts and people scurried about in a completely unregulated fashion. The new model's proponents envision today's drivers and pedestrians blending into a colorful and peaceful traffic stream.

It may sound like chaos, but it's only the lesson drawn from one of the insights of traffic psychology: Drivers will force the accelerator down ruthlessly only in situations where everything has been fully regulated. Where the situation is unclear, they're forced to drive more carefully and cautiously.

Indeed, "Unsafe is safe" was the motto of a conference where proponents of the new roadside philosophy met in Frankfurt in mid-October.

True, many of them aren't convinced of the new approach. "German drivers are used to rules," says Michael Schreckenberg of Duisburg University. If clear directives are abandoned, domestic rush-hour traffic will turn into an Oriental-style bazaar, he warns. He believes the new vision of drivers and pedestrians interacting in a cozy, relaxed way will work, at best, only for small towns.

But one German borough is already daring to take the step into lawlessness. The town of Bohmte in Lower Saxony has 13,500 inhabitants. It's traversed by a country road and a main road. Cars approach speedily, delivery trucks stop to unload their cargo and pedestrians scurry by on elevated sidewalks.

The road will be re-furbished in early 2007, using EU funds. "The sidewalks are going to go, and the asphalt too. Everything will be covered in cobblestones," Klaus Goedejohann, the mayor, explains. "We're getting rid of the division between cars and pedestrians."

The plans derive inspiration and motivation from a large-scale experiment in the town of Drachten in the Netherlands, which has 45,000 inhabitants. There, cars have already been driving over red natural stone for years. Cyclists dutifully raise their arm when they want to make a turn, and drivers communicate by hand signs, nods and waving.

"More than half of our signs have already been scrapped," says traffic planner Koop Kerkstra. "Only two out of our original 18 traffic light crossings are left, and we've converted them to roundabouts." Now traffic is regulated by only two rules in Drachten: "Yield to the right" and "Get in someone's way and you'll be towed."

Strange as it may seem, the number of accidents has declined dramatically. Experts from Argentina and the United States have visited Drachten. Even London has expressed an interest in this new example of automobile anarchy. And the model is being tested in the British capital's Kensington neighborhood.


I suspect it wouldn't work in NZ -too many smallcocks

A similar thing was suggested in Australia too (well tasmania at least). The downside being that although the number of major accidents decreases the number of minor accidents increases...read for people on motorbike and bicycles the number of major accidents increases.

[pzkpfw]

Yes. Right turning traffic is crossing the path of straight through traffic so should expect to wait. Because left turners often don't look behind them to see that there is no straight through traffic they can sit and wait to give way when there is no need, causing frustration and general gibbledeness. Hey, I just made a new word. After 14 years in NZ I understand the rule, I just don't understand the point of it.

I think that's part of the problem.

The straight-through traffic behind the left turner ought to be stopping - blocked by the left turner.

Then the right turner get's to go. Otherwise, on a very busy road they'd have to wait for ages - stuck in the middle of the road.

Around here (Tawa) if someone turning left to give way to a right turner stops in front of a straight-througher, the straight througher just drives around them, into the fliush median if they have to, to go past (ironically, getting close to the right tuner). I don't think they should be doing that. (No wonder some folk get confused, having to worry about the guy behind the guy they are giving way to, or being given way by).


I'd be interested in a legal opinion on that (i.e. the real law). That is, someone turning right has right of way over someone turning left - but does the fact that the left turner has someone wanting to go straight, behind them (in the saem lane), change who has right of way?

i.e. when the left turner doesn't give way to the right-turner, because they see someone behind themselves going straight, are they actually doing the legal thing?

[kwaka_crasher]

Blue is not allowed to overtake if he has to cross the centreline to do so as he doesn't have 100m of clear road ahead. So that scenario doesn't play out.