An Unpopular Thought/Suggestion

[badlieutenant]

id like to see a hp to weight ratio for bikes that learners can ride. And some training with motocross bikes would be good also. I rode road bikes for a few years before I jumped on a motox bike (other than stuffing around on the farm etc) and the amount of learning one can learn in a single day just thrashing out a stuffed 2-stroke was astonishing to me.
would be good test to put a few newer KB riders on a motox bike for the afternoon and see what they think, certainly makes you realise how unfit you are (forearm cramp first)
my 2 cents

[Bob]

id like to see a hp to weight ratio for bikes that learners can ride. And some training with motocross bikes would be good also. I rode road bikes for a few years before I jumped on a motox bike (other than stuffing around on the farm etc) and the amount of learning one can learn in a single day just thrashing out a stuffed 2-stroke was astonishing to me.
would be good test to put a few newer KB riders on a motox bike for the afternoon and see what they think, certainly makes you realise how unfit you are (forearm cramp first)
my 2 cents

Thought you might find these two paragraphs interesting - these are the proposals from the European Union on power/weight ratios and licence categories:

"The current A1 licence (up to 125cc/11kW) will remain, but the full A licence will be split into two sections; A2, which is the same as the present “2 year restricted” licence (under 25kW/33bhp) and full unrestricted A. A new moped category (AM) would also be introduced.

The proposals also crack down on restricting bikes. Worried that manufacturers will look to make lighter and more powerful machines, the proposals will see Power to Weight ratios introduced. A1 will have a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.1kW/kg and A2 will carry a Power/Weight ratio of 0.2kW/kg. In simple terms, you will no longer be able to restrict a Hayabusa to 125cc!"

Again though, I wish something similar for cars would happen. But there is no chance of that - guaranteed election losing strategy.

[James Deuce]

Again though, I wish something similar for cars would happen. But there is no chance of that - guaranteed election losing strategy.

I've seen that argument pop up a couple of times, and with the voting public getting older, I can't see how it would lose votes. The current baby boomer bulge is precisely the kind of demographic anomaly that would get this legislation passed, on the grounds that not only does speed kill, but we've "discovered" that inexperience does too. We can help stop your kids and grandchildren dying on the roads if you let us pass this.

[Ranzer]

Well at the risk of sounding like some one eyed liberal why have any restrictions at all. Personally I think the problem with new riders is that many just go too dam fast for their riding skills. Coming into a corner or whatever on a 250cc is just as dangerouse as say 1000cc. So here is my solutuion. No CC restrictions. Compulsary riding tuition. The riding tuition to be certified by qualified persanal. Riders to carry proof that they are enrolled and that they attend these courses on a regular basis. No pillions untill a ful licence has been gained.

Skyryder

Y'know I would have to agree with this more than any cc or HP or power/weight limitations... I've ridden an R1 (<plug>Thanks Red Baron! </plug>) and didn't get into any trouble at all cause I knew I had to take it real easy... if I'd been an asshat on it though I could've killed myself about as fast as I can blink. Unless there's some mechanical failure, it ain't the machine that causes the crash...

[Holy Roller]

cc rating restriction is crazy inexperience at higher speeds or at any speed for that matter can have serrious concequences. The horsepower / weight ratio like there is in other countries is a more senseable option for newbies along with compulsory riding school attendance. I learned heaps from going through a riding school even though in those days a pass entitled one to a full licence.

[wildcat_lgf]

Yeah I agree they should do a similar thing with cars! Leave the bike situation alone...but what really gets me (now that I'm on the other side of the car license system ) is that any punk kid can go and get a 2L Turbo or V8 or whatever they can afford and hoon around speeding out of control and hurting alot of people (numerous incidents lately to back up this most likely over-exaggerated comment).

They should restrict those on Learners or Restricted car licence to nothing over 1.8L, nothing turbo, supercharged, (certainly not NOS ) etc unless they have an adult with full licence for over 2 years beside them. Then if they get done for dangerous driving, speeding, etc you could fine the "responsible" adult for it too

A great way to hack alot of people off all in one go ...but seriously

[Ixion]

Y'know I would have to agree with this more than any cc or HP or power/weight limitations... I've ridden an R1 (<plug>Thanks Red Baron! </plug>) and didn't get into any trouble at all cause I knew I had to take it real easy... if I'd been an asshat on it though I could've killed myself about as fast as I can blink. Unless there's some mechanical failure, it ain't the machine that causes the crash...

I've changed my thinking on this recently. I used to support the idea of a limit for beginners because of the logic that it would stop someone blasting themselves to oblivion on an R1 at 16 .

But I've read the large number of very responsible posts from new riders here, clearly recognising that it would be foolish to start wioth something too uncontrollable. And noted that there are 250's that have pretty hot performance (two smokers etc) - but beginners aren't all lining up to buy them and spurning the GN250.

So I've changed my mind about limits, I don't think there should be any. Some education about sensible choices, the wise ones will listen the unwise will not. But the latter could still buy an NSR250 under todays rules. And unlimited opend options for the adventure bikes, older (softer) 500's etc.

[Lou Girardin]

Is it potential top speed that's the killer? Or is it the way litre bikes fling you from one corner to the next before your (inexperienced) brain catches up?
An RS250 may do 220-230 k's but it doesn't get there anywhere near as fast as an R1.
Power to weight restrictions are the best option, plus compulsory training for ALL drivers/riders.

[Sniper]

Nope, just stay on 250.

[Ixion]

Is it potential top speed that's the killer? Or is it the way litre bikes fling you from one corner to the next before your (inexperienced) brain catches up?
An RS250 may do 220-230 k's but it doesn't get there anywhere near as fast as an R1.
Power to weight restrictions are the best option, plus compulsory training for ALL drivers/riders.

In theory (and sometimes in practice) in very twisty stuff smaller bikes may be faster than larger ones (gthough it would have to be very twisty to make up for a 250 -> 1000 diff).

And in theory also a small bike can be cornered harder than a large one . Less weight, smaller gyroscopic effects etc. Mr WINJA made some interesting comments on that recently. So you guys on R1's better watch out or I'll take you on the inside on my Nifty 50.

[Marmoot]

"restrict HP, not CC"

.....hahahahaha
Performance Bikes (2 years ago) ran a comparison between a 'strangled' mighty Hayabusa (33hp) and an RS125.
The 125 won hands down.

ok...there's nothing to see here. Move along...

[Stevo]

33hp - 125ccin the UK. And that's more than enough for newbies in my book.

Yeah but you're a Pom eh? A Pom prob couldn't handle more than 150cc on a learners given that 99% of you grow up in the cities.
I had been riding motorcycles and ATVs for over twenty years before I finally got round to getting my learner motorcycle license. If I was restricted to 150cc I wouldn't have bought a bike but just waited the time till I could get a decent bike. I guess I had a little maturity on my side when I did it and also thought that riding at 70kph was ludicrous when usually I went faster off road and prob without a helmet

We would be far better off trying to change the 70kph law to 90 so at least the poor learning bastards are not likely to be sideswiped by truck and trailer units or the most ignorant of road users (those towing boats).

[Stevo]

Also in the latest type crash stats the highest group was older experienced riders, (obviously taking it all too casual than the young fellas). The least represented group was 25-40 age groups.

[placidfemme]

I think having learners restricted to 150's is pointless and dumb. Most of those wonderful little 150's you mentioned in the first post are 2 strokes... that really rules it down to only about 3 or 4 bikes they can ride, and smaller doesn't mean safer, you're forgetting it's the person on the bike that is dangerous and not the bike. Those 150's brand new cost about $2500 to $4000 brand new, most 250's cost about the same (second hand of-course), and yes all those uni students ride around on 150's... why? Because they are studying and poor and can't afford anything better, most of them arn't even into bikes as an interest or a lifestyle choice... it's the cheapest option. I don't think all learners should be held back and forced to ride 150's because of an argument like that.

But given that money is an option, if they buy a 150, most times they will need financing to buy the bike, then they want to upgrade to a 250, and they're still paying back the first loan, so they top that up to buy a bigger bike... thats just incouraging more debt and not new riders. If I had gone for my learners and I had to ride a 150, I wouldn't have bothered, I would have sat the basic handling skills test, done my learners at AA and not ride a bike for 6 months (not legally anyway) and then gone for my restriced if they aloud 250's.

I think the LTSA should focus on targeting young dick heads in boy racer cars killing themselves and their friends and OUR families before they start worring about bikers being limited to scooter powered bike look alikes...

[Biff]

Yeah but you're a Pom eh? A Pom prob couldn't handle more than 150cc on a learners given that 99% of you grow up in the cities.

Almost correct, born in Wales (I’m told that doesn’t make me a pom – whatever) where a large proportion of people don't live in the cities, and nor do an awful lot more that 1% you quoted of the population of the UK. We also have plenty of A and B roads, country lanes and such like to learn on.

My argument is based upon personal experience. The logic is that when you're riding a 125cc bike there was a snowballs chance in hell of being able to do any 'great' speed (I think you could manage 80 mph ish), certainly not the speeds that some 250s are capable of. There’s also no chance of chasing down any sports bikes on a group ride, but I digress. What the restriction to a 125cc bike does is enable a rider to concentrate on the basics after they've done a Compulsory Basic Training (CBT) course. Something (and here I'm going to offend some people) that appears to be very much lacking here in NZ.

Far too many road users here (bikers and cage drivers), and a fact that we've witnessed by recent posts here, don’t manage to cover off and understand some basic riding/driving skills. I know this statement will piss some people here off but I honestly believe that to be fact. If you need evidence then do a search on this site for accident stats both here and overseas. There was a huge debate about this here some time ago. I’m not saying (although the stats will) that Brits are less prone to accidents, despite the volume of traffic on the roads there, that’s not what I’m aiming to do here, but if the question is are British riders MADE to spend more time learning the basics of road riding, because they have a lower powered bike, then I say the answer is yes. Without a doubt.

There is no substitute for practice, and the fact is that (here I go offending people again - sorry) that the majority of young men (mainly men) think they’re bullet proof and prefer to ride fast than concentrate of riding smoothly and safely. I was one of them, albeit on a bike with half the capacity of the ones new riders (irrespective of their age) are allowed to ride here in NZ.

In the UK new riders learn how to manage the corners, learn their limitations and hone their hazard perception skills on a lower powered bike than they do here in NZ. A bike that is still a lot of fun to ride (I had a DT125 for weekend fun last year in addition to a CBR600RR, it was a hoot). Putting aside the fact that to suddenly reduce the limit in NZ to 125cc would be bonkers, the merits of getting the basics right far outweigh the need to go just that little bit faster on a 250cc IMHO.

Bob - help me out here, but once you've passed your CBT, got some K's and experience under your belt, aren't you then limited to a 500 for a while?