$400 for a ignition timing pickup? You must be fucking kidding!

[Conquiztador]

Well I guess if the bike shop had performed the same only partially successful job as you have theyd by now be named and shamed on this very forum and thered be yet another ''night of the long knives!'' But at least you have transparently owned up to it being less than successful and have researched why.
Trigger airgap is indeed very critical and can be laboriously optimised using a peak voltage meter or oscilloscope. At high rpm / load the gap is likely not correct to give a short sharp voltage buildup to ''light the fire''. A lethargic rise time and low peak voltage will also likely retard the timing a little.
Indeed $400 is obscene as is the delivery time and for some reason Ducati stuff is particularly bad. I wouldnt though blame the bike shop for the high price because their buy price is likely equally high. I would though blame them for a lack of imagination and that as much comes down to a big problem that affects nearly all bike shops ( and not only in NZ! ) LACK OF EXPERIENCE!!!!
I can well recall the 5 years that I worked in bike shops in London, if you think we have idiots here then you aint seen nothing! Expensive parts ordered that didnt fix the problem, oil drain plugs left undone and lots of drug related issues. ( I think theres a direct correlation there ) And heres a good one....''Why didnt you check the valve clearances as specified in the service schedule?" .......''Well I listened and it wasnt noisy! "...............''Ok, did you listen for the tight ones as well?'' Plonkers.
Spare a thought that the bike shop will likely end up owning that trigger as overseas procured items such as that are not returnable. Despite the fact that maybe it could have been gone about in a better way that covered everyones butts there was nonetheless a business agreement between the customer and the dealer to order the part. Very often projected delivery times arent as accurate as one would like and that is no fault of the dealer as it is largely out of their control. Sadly the Italians are particularly bad in this respect.
If indeed they end up owning this part they have my sympathy at least in respect of the loss they will incur.

Thanks for your comment Robert.

My response to you:

My "less than successful" job (as you call it) was done to get the second cylinder to run. Nothing else. It did, so that part was a success. (Considering that it was now 10 weeks since my mate went to the bike shop I think it is 1 - 0 to me at this stage. I am also a qualified Electronic Engineer and easily understand your explanation, but as I have no charasteristics for the "real" sensor or the one I grabbed I decided to do the cautios thing and rather than make it too early and too close, leave it on the safe side. After all, the only thing we wanted to achieve was to confirm that it was the sensor that was faulty.)

I have charged nothing and got the cylinder working, they already charged $400 and have produced nothing. ( 2 - 0 to me).

I warned my mate that the worst scenarion (after we knew that the pickup coil is working) would be a timing issue as it is not the right one. But I also told him that give it a go and I be happy to adjust it for you once I have a deeper look in to it. I have now done that and have the solution. Again, no solution from the bike shop ( 3 - 0 to me).

At the same stage I also did the simple research (over the web that anyone can access) and found the right sensor for a fraction of the price. I could have purchased the sensor with my credit card for US$40. Add some freight, and it would have been in my hands inside a week easily. The bike shop did do nothing of this kind. And after 10 weeks has produced nothing that anyone can fit in the bike. Add to that, that even if I added 100% to the price, the max my mate would have had to pay me was under $200. (Makes it 4 - 0 to me).

I promised my mate to contact him the next day with info re where he can, if he so wants to, find a sensor. I did that. It is called caring. To not be in contact in 10 week is a lack of anything. (5 - 0 to the backyard mechanic. That is what I call a clean wash!)

Robert, I have follows your posts on here, and I am not totally unsymphatetic towards your look at things. I also get the impression that your knowledge is beound approach. The ones that speak well about you clearly state that. But to stand up as a lone warrior to try and keep all bike shops/mechanic's honour is clear stupidity. If I was you I would defend my own reputation and knowledge and allow the others to sort them self. After all, not many on here thanking you. The only thing you are achieving is alienating possible future customers.

And lastly: You try to make my lack of getting it right straight away an issue. My mate has no problems with that. Nor do I. Why should I? I am not the one advertising how fucking brilliant I am... I have never told anyone that I am the bees knees re all and everyhing. But where I differ from the ones who took his $400 is that I care. And if they do not give him his $400 back I will go and get it for him. As you might have noticed, at no time have I mentioned the shops name. If they do not give him his $400 back that will change...

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for your comment Robert.

My response to you:

My "less than successful" job (as you call it) was done to get the second cylinder to run. Nothing else. It did, so that part was a success. (Considering that it was now 10 weeks since my mate went to the bike shop I think it is 1 - 0 to me at this stage. I am also a qualified Electronic Engineer and easily understand your explanation, but as I have no charasteristics for the "real" sensor or the one I grabbed I decided to do the cautios thing and rather than make it too early and too close, leave it on the safe side. After all, the only thing we wanted to achieve was to confirm that it was the sensor that was faulty.)

I have charged nothing and got the cylinder working, they already charged $400 and have produced nothing. ( 2 - 0 to me).

I warned my mate that the worst scenarion (after we knew that the pickup coil is working) would be a timing issue as it is not the right one. But I also told him that give it a go and I be happy to adjust it for you once I have a deeper look in to it. I have now done that and have the solution. Again, no solution from the bike shop ( 3 - 0 to me).

At the same stage I also did the simple research (over the web that anyone can access) and found the right sensor for a fraction of the price. I could have purchased the sensor with my credit card for US$40. Add some freight, and it would have been in my hands inside a week easily. The bike shop did do nothing of this kind. And after 10 weeks has produced nothing that anyone can fit in the bike. Add to that, that even if I added 100% to the price, the max my mate would have had to pay me was under $200. (Makes it 4 - 0 to me).

I promised my mate to contact him the next day with info re where he can, if he so wants to, find a sensor. I did that. It is called caring. To not be in contact in 10 week is a lack of anything. (5 - 0 to the backyard mechanic. That is what I call a clean wash!)

Robert, I have follows your posts on here, and I am not totally unsymphatetic towards your look at things. I also get the impression that your knowledge is beound approach. The ones that speak well about you clearly state that. But to stand up as a lone warrior to try and keep all bike shops/mechanic's honour is clear stupidity. If I was you I would defend my own reputation and knowledge and allow the others to sort them self. After all, not many on here thanking you. The only thing you are achieving is alienating possible future customers.

And lastly: You try to make my lack of getting it right straight away an issue. My mate has no problems with that. Nor do I. Why should I? I am not the one advertising how fucking brilliant I am... I have never told anyone that I am the bees knees re all and everyhing. But where I differ from the ones who took his $400 is that I care. And if they do not give him his $400 back I will go and get it for him. As you might have noticed, at no time have I mentioned the shops name. If they do not give him his $400 back that will change...

No in fact I thought that I offered a very balanced post. Having been in the trade for nigh on 35 years I think I have a perspective for both sides of the coin, can see how issues are exacerbated by the new ways of the world and have also witnessed a degradation in standards of knowledge and service that dont only afflict this industry.
For myself I first trained as an aero engineer in the RNZAF, long before it was callously destroyed by Helen Clark. I then did an adult apprenticeship in motorcycle engineering in the late 70s prior to successive Governments destroying the apprenticeship system. In fact I sat my final A grade paper in NZ House in London back in 81 and at that time I believe A grade certification actually meant something, as opposed to the almost rubber stamp mentality of the current ''system''
There are in fact a number of very good and experienced mechanics in the trade but I also shake my head at the many that clearly are not. Its not enough to just be an enthusiast, there also needs to be a solid grounding of education / training and the willpower to do the job properly. On the flipside there are many customers who also wont spend the money ( within sensible constraints ) to allow the job to be done properly! In no way am I an apologist for shonky work but feel that all too often this forum witch hunts and derides many dealers when there are going to be in some instances a very plausible other side of the story.
In fact I applaud your initiative as much as I wonder aloud that the dealer didnt have the imagination at least in the first instance to research other procurement options. And yes the job was only partially successful, successful in that you proved the dealers diagnosis and got the bike back running on both of its cylinders. I recognised what was going on because I have also been there and jury rigged alternative trigger coils either because the oem part was temporarily unavailable, too damn expensive ( no argument there ) or in the case of many was part of the whole stator assembly. That is where I learnt emphatically that rise time and peak voltage etc are often critical.
Perhaps the dealer was gunshy about fitting an alternative because it might not have entirely fixed the problem. Also running around for several weeks on one cylinder is not exactly sympathetic to the engine.
Your efforts are stellar and your friend doesnt chastise you for not getting it right in one hit, no-one ( including me ) is criticising you for that. And being an electronics engineer you are very much in the box seat of being able to work out what is going on. But one of the points I was trying to make is that if the dealer had effected such a repair at low cost with the same initial result some customers would vent their anger on a forum such as this. But clearly the dealer was over cautious. I feel sorry for the customer but I also will feel sorry for the dealer if they end up owning that part.

[Conquiztador]

Robert: I add this to the equation: When my mate contacted them to try to sort this shamble, they could not even find the order for the sensor... I have no sympahty for the shop. None. I hope the sensor turns up (after I have collected the $400), and they then end up selling it for a loss only for the sensor to be faulty! THAT would be karma.

[sidecar bob]

Robert: I add this to the equation: When my mate contacted them to try to sort this shamble, they could not even find the order for the sensor... I have no sympahty for the shop. None. I hope the sensor turns up (after I have collected the $400), and they then end up selling it for a loss only for the sensor to be faulty! THAT would be karma.

Otherwise known as a $100 customer. Cheaper to give them $100 & tell them to fuck of, rather that buy into their shit.
If a franchise dealer sells "pirate" parts in favour of genuine for the model they support, they can have their dealership status revoked. That wouldnt bother you though, would it, because it wouldnt affect you.

[Conquiztador]

Otherwise known as a $100 customer. Cheaper to give them $100 & tell them to fuck of, rather that buy into their shit.
If a franchise dealer sells "pirate" parts in favour of genuine for the model they support, they can have their dealership status revoked. That wouldnt bother you though, would it, because it wouldnt affect you.

You are a likable character... And considering you have missed some vital points (and do not have all the facts) I think you should reconsider your comments:
1. The dealer is not a Duke agent. And so there is no chance for them to loose something that they do not have.
2. The dealer could easily have said: "Sorry, can not help you" and my mate would have kept on searching. Perhaps even gone to another shop that the first one could have recommended? No $100 needed. But that takes tact and your "Fuck Off" is clearly not the recommended wording to achieve this.
3. How can a Duke with a faulty pickup sensor be "shit"? A potential customer comes in with a genuine issue and asks for help. You consider it "shit"...

But I can easily see why you would write something like this on a Friday morning: You probably in the dogbox and need to take it out on someone.

[Robert Taylor]

You are a likable character... And considering you have missed some vital points (and do not have all the facts) I think you should reconsider your comments:
1. The dealer is not a Duke agent. And so there is no chance for them to loose something that they do not have.
2. The dealer could easily have said: "Sorry, can not help you" and my mate would have kept on searching. Perhaps even gone to another shop that the first one could have recommended? No $100 needed. But that takes tact and your "Fuck Off" is clearly not the recommended wording to achieve this.
3. How can a Duke with a faulty pickup sensor be "shit"? A potential customer comes in with a genuine issue and asks for help. You consider it "shit"...

But I can easily see why you would write something like this on a Friday morning: You probably in the dogbox and need to take it out on someone.

Certainly if the dealer couldnt find the order that is very bad. But this thread also raises a very interesting point about forums............very often not all the facts are presented and those that reply often surmise on the basis of the limited information that has been presented. Sometimes ( and Im not saying so in this case ) this appears to be almost deliberate so that the respondent can be gleefully shot down in flames.

[sidecar bob]

You are a likable character... And considering you have missed some vital points (and do not have all the facts) I think you should reconsider your comments:
1. The dealer is not a Duke agent. And so there is no chance for them to loose something that they do not have.
2. The dealer could easily have said: "Sorry, can not help you" and my mate would have kept on searching. Perhaps even gone to another shop that the first one could have recommended? No $100 needed. But that takes tact and your "Fuck Off" is clearly not the recommended wording to achieve this.
3. How can a Duke with a faulty pickup sensor be "shit"? A potential customer comes in with a genuine issue and asks for help. You consider it "shit"...

But I can easily see why you would write something like this on a Friday morning: You probably in the dogbox and need to take it out on someone.

Na not in the dog box at all. I dont really give a shit wether im right wrong or otherwise, i just tire of the old, "bike shop is shafting me" tale. Everyone seems to need to have a fuckin bleat about what a bunch of rip off cunts shops are.
Surely then the munter here is the bloke that put the cart before the horse & ordered a $400 part before satisfying themselves that there were better ways of castrating the goat.
If you came into my shop guns blazing asking for $400 back, there would likley be a bit of animated discussion before you left with said cash & me holding a part that is useless to me.
It only becomes "shit" when know all next door neighbour gets involved & convinces the owner that hes being ripped.
Potential customers order parts & come back & buy them, they dont fuck you around to the tune of $400. That would be a "potential pain in the arse"

[Conquiztador]

Na not in the dog box at all. I dont really give a shit wether im right wrong or otherwise, i just tire of the old, "bike shop is shafting me" tale. Everyone seems to need to have a fuckin bleat about what a bunch of rip off cunts shops are.
Surely then the munter here is the bloke that put the cart before the horse & ordered a $400 part before satisfying themselves that there were better ways of castrating the goat.
If you came into my shop guns blazing asking for $400 back, there would likley be a bit of animated discussion before you left with said cash & me holding a part that is useless to me.
It only becomes "shit" when know all next door neighbour gets involved & convinces the owner that hes being ripped.
Potential customers order parts & come back & buy them, they dont fuck you around to the tune of $400. That would be a "potential pain in the arse"

The guy was prepared to pay the $400. That is clear: He paid it! But after waiting for 10 weeks he was running out of patience and needed someones shoulder to cry on.
Enter me. As a passionate cunt I took pity on him and wanted to have a look. I had, and now this mess has popped up.

If they had got the sensor in, replaced it, and he was on the road he would have cried for a evening in his beer re the money. Then forgotten about it and happily been riding.

No matter how you turn this, the blame can only be pointed one way.

And this is after all a public forum where people have the right to bleat. If you run a shop and don't want to be mentioned here I have a simple solution: Treat your customers well and there will only be positive stuff said re you.

[sidecar bob]

Sweet as, somebody's got to make some noise on behalf of shops, & thats my job.
Fortunately i fix cars so arent exposed to the fickle bike set on a normal working day. Having said that, i have probably a dozen car clients that frequent this site & i think we understand each other.

[Brian d marge]

I got to say this again as highlighted by rrise time in the coil

While Some repairs are ok such bas fitting a clutch lever from a different model ( even that can be fraught with danger)

if you don't understand fully how a system works , a repair can open up a can of worms real quick

back in the day I machined up a timing belt pulley for someone , took a guess at the diameter , but got the belt angle wrong , new belt started to fail earlier than if i had just bought the correct part , In this case the repair got the person out of a bind BUT actually cost more in the long run

On saying the above

if I had to wait ten MIN for a replacement and it cost 400 dollars I to would be racing to me parts box !!!!

Now I have expensive computers and smart people and a whole Range of floatation test failures to avoid the YCS ( You C&%$T scenario)

Which reminds me back to work !!

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

The guy was prepared to pay the $400. That is clear: He paid it! But after waiting for 10 weeks he was running out of patience and needed someones shoulder to cry on.
Enter me. As a passionate cunt I took pity on him and wanted to have a look. I had, and now this mess has popped up.

If they had got the sensor in, replaced it, and he was on the road he would have cried for a evening in his beer re the money. Then forgotten about it and happily been riding.

No matter how you turn this, the blame can only be pointed one way.

And this is after all a public forum where people have the right to bleat. If you run a shop and don't want to be mentioned here I have a simple solution: Treat your customers well and there will only be positive stuff said re you.

Maybe not and Im surmising here on the basis of the information that has been offered. Lead times are often unreliable and often it isnt even the manufacturers fault.

EXAMPLE, for many months last year I was awaiting Ohlins MX steering dampers, they never showed up with each successive adjusted supply date and I had grumpy customers who thought I was being useless.
What transpired that was behind it was Ohlins were recieving the main bodies from a subcontractor and with each successive batch they were unhappy with the quality of the material as its dimensional accuracy changed with age. Alloys do that and metallurgists who may read this will understand. Many batches were rejected by Ohlins and it became a nightmare through the chain of supply, especially those on the front line dealing with customers who often have no conception of manufacturing leadtimes and quality control issues that occur.
Ohlins is a product made in a ''proper'' country where they are preoccupied with the very best function and quality. Had it been a Chinese company they wouldnt likely have cared one iota. Which raises another point, China is taking more and more of the worlds raw materials and there has been a real issue with many companies sourcing material of the standard and quality that they want. Exactly what Ohlins problem was with these steering dampers.
Lead times have also increased for manufacture of many parts and therefore ultimately length of supply. This because many manufacturers and subcontractors to those manufacturers laid off lots of staff as the recession bit. That simply means they just dont have the capacity to do things as quickly anymore and this will be felt for a few years yet.
Im not saying it neccessarily applies in this case, but its very easy for someone who has no conception to get on a forum and bleat.

[Ixion]

I understand what you are saying

But I am not convinced that it is the complete picture

Some years ago I worked in the diesel parts business. We supplied parts for diesel engines. We had a concept called VOR - Vehicle Off Road. As the name implies it meant that the part was required because the vehicle (truck, excavator,bulldozer, generator etc etc ) was 'off the road'. that is a serious matter for the owener. He NEEDS that vehicle on the road, generating revenue, it pays his bills, and minor incidentals, like his family eating.

So, for a VOR , we would follow up the supply chain. We would call Australia. "Do you have an XXX in stock. Actually there, on the shelf , in front of your eyes?". "No, but you are expecting some. OK, can we follow up the line?" And repeat , going up the supply chain until we either found someone with the required unit (" Wonderful. Please ship it ,and charge through your normal channels" ) .Or, came to a dead end.Repeat, for other sources. Until we established that we couldn't source one anywhere. In the latter case, we would advise the owner,and tell him to take the vehicle to our workshop. They would improvise, do whatever was necessary to get the vehicle back on the road, even if only short term, or in a limited capacity.

Whcih sounds pretty much what the OP did.

[Conquiztador]

Maybe not and Im surmising here on the basis of the information that has been offered. Lead times are often unreliable and often it isnt even the manufacturers fault.

EXAMPLE, for many months last year I was awaiting Ohlins MX steering dampers, they never showed up with each successive adjusted supply date and I had grumpy customers who thought I was being useless.
What transpired that was behind it was Ohlins were recieving the main bodies from a subcontractor and with each successive batch they were unhappy with the quality of the material as its dimensional accuracy changed with age. Alloys do that and metallurgists who may read this will understand. Many batches were rejected by Ohlins and it became a nightmare through the chain of supply, especially those on the front line dealing with customers who often have no conception of manufacturing leadtimes and quality control issues that occur.
Ohlins is a product made in a ''proper'' country where they are preoccupied with the very best function and quality. Had it been a Chinese company they wouldnt likely have cared one iota. Which raises another point, China is taking more and more of the worlds raw materials and there has been a real issue with many companies sourcing material of the standard and quality that they want. Exactly what Ohlins problem was with these steering dampers.
Lead times have also increased for manufacture of many parts and therefore ultimately length of supply. This because many manufacturers and subcontractors to those manufacturers laid off lots of staff as the recession bit. That simply means they just dont have the capacity to do things as quickly anymore and this will be felt for a few years yet.
Im not saying it neccessarily applies in this case, but its very easy for someone who has no conception to get on a forum and bleat.

Robert, with all due respect. You are pissing in to the wind.

A customer walks in through the door. He wants help, not excuses and long winded explanation of how the Mongols are stealing all the alloy from the Vikings, creating a vacuum in Scandinavia that makes the Norse gods so angry that they make Rome fall. Therefore making in impossible to get any bits from Ducati.

In my mates case we already know that the sensors are available. The shop (who is not a Duke dealer) should have asked from the supplier: "How long?". Then told my mate: "2 years". THEN tried to take his $$'s...

But this is all old news now. I have no issue with you, so will leave it here. And I will update as this is all sorted.

[98tls]

The guy was prepared to pay the $400. That is clear: He paid it! But after waiting for 10 weeks he was running out of patience and needed someones shoulder to cry on.
Enter me. As a passionate cunt I took pity on him and wanted to have a look. I had, and now this mess has popped up.

If they had got the sensor in, replaced it, and he was on the road he would have cried for a evening in his beer re the money. Then forgotten about it and happily been riding.

No matter how you turn this, the blame can only be pointed one way.

And this is after all a public forum where people have the right to bleat. If you run a shop and don't want to be mentioned here I have a simple solution: Treat your customers well and there will only be positive stuff said re you.

Easy isnt it.Totally agree with the public forum thing and tired of hearing the same old rant from no doubt good dealers defending the whole industry,Why there defending people they have never dealt with is beyond me but whilst i acknowledge there loyalty they need to get there head outta the sand.Even in this small town theres a supposed very well respected dealer that i will never bother dealing with again in my lifetime because he couldnt be fucked ordering me 2 cables when only one of them would fit,both made by the company he was representing.Right from the get go it was pretty obvious this guy had long lost any passion for bikes and was simply fucking bored.

[Motu]

. But this thread also raises a very interesting point about forums............very often not all the facts are presented and those that reply often surmise on the basis of the limited information that has been presented. Sometimes ( and Im not saying so in this case ) this appears to be almost deliberate so that the respondent can be gleefully shot down in flames.

The reason I very seldom get involved in threads like this - after 3 pages finally the full story comes out,rendering all previous post junk...apart from the OP,he is vindicated.After bashing my head against the brick wall too many times I've given up helping people on this forum about mechanical matters.No great loss,I know fuck all anyway.