National Radio interviews Tooman and BRONZ re: fatal biker accident

[Swoop]

Double yellow lines either side of the crest for a few hundred meters, is it illegal to do a U-Turn on Double Yellows?
I believe it is.

There was a single yellow line where the crash occurred. (See here)
The double yellow lines are on the other side of the hill.

Still the fault of the cop, crossing the yellow line.


Agree with your final comment...

[PirateJafa]

There is no evidence that the hazard was stationary , and perhaps some that it was not. That is, the car may have turned across the path of the bike (the driver admits he never saw the bike). And this would all have happened very fast, a different scenario to the broken down truck

Someone said that it would take three seconds to do the turn. I'm doubtful of that myself, but assuming it is, that would mean that if the car was stationary across the road it had completed half its turn. So it would have completed the turn and been accelerating away within 1.5 to 2 seconds.

Now the rider would have had at least 2 , probably 3 seconds after cresting the hill before impact, even if he didn't brake. At 100 kph he's travelling very roughly 30 metres per second. The visibility would have been 60 or 70 metres, depending on height etc . So that would be at least 2 seconds to reach the car. But if the car only needed 1.5 seconds to complete its turn, either the crash would not have happened, or it would have been a tail end crash.

The imponderables are too great to say that with certainty (in particular that three second figure, which is not mine). But equally, I don't think it can be said to be a case of a stationary obstruction.

And the one case where the 'able to stop" always rule fails, is if a car turns in front of an oncoming vehicle.

That statement was not directed at this incident in particular, but rather in general.

Although in the situation you have outlined above, it would sound like the rider hadn't left himself enough room. Yes, the car should no be doing what it is doing, but unless it does it within your "stopping distance" (has happened to me once in the city), you should still be able to stop and avoid the crash.

"He shouldn't have done that" is not much consolation when you are fucked up or dead.

It will be interesting to see what the results are in this case.

You're kidding us right? If not...you've got poo on the end of your knob. You'll cause a massive accident if you slow to 20kph over every rise in the fucking road.

Please point out where I said you should slow to 20km/h for every bump in the road? For someone who is old enough to be allegedly running a bike store, your reading comprehension is lackadaisical to say the least.

If you are unable to ride at a speed that is appropriate and safe for the conditions (this is not always the same as the speed limit - it can be less than the speed limit, or even more than the speed limit), then you should get the hell off the public roads before you injure or kill another innocent party.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Please point out where I said you should slow to 20km/h for every bump in the road? For someone who is old enough to be allegedly running a bike store, your reading comprehension is lackadaisical to say the least.

If you are unable to ride at a speed that is appropriate and safe for the conditions (this is not always the same as the speed limit - it can be less than the speed limit, or even more than the speed limit), then you should get the hell off the public roads before you injure or kill another innocent party.

Please point out where it says I run a bike shop cocksmoker? So much for YOUR incredible reading skills eh? What I do read into your incredibly full of yourself post is this...you think that a perfectly innocent rider is dead because he's a fool for not being able stop in time for an unforseeable immovable object. Correct? Am I right? Did I read that right????

[Grubber]

Yes Les, you are completely correct about the actions of the officer. My point is that as much as this could have been avoided by the cop taking more precaution when making the three point turn, the same could eqaully be said for the actions of the rider. It's not as if the patrol car appeared magically out of the ether, bang smack in front of the rider - the rider surely must have come over the crest at a speed for which he was unable to stop in the distance for which he could see. Therefore does some of the blame not also fall on the rider?

I am guessing a little here but from the photo it looks like the car is around 50 to 100 metres off the brow of the hill. If the rider was doing a comfortable 110k's i doubt he would have too much room to move when he saw the car. Can't really see how he could be of any fault. Simple fact of the matter is, the car just shouldn't have been there fullstop. No car No accident!

[PirateJafa]

Please point out where it says I run a bike shop cocksmoker? So much for YOUR incredible reading skills eh?

From what I can recall of some of your past posts on this forum, I must have accidentally thought you did. Clearly I was badly mistaken - I'd also thought you had a clue. Never fear though, I won't make that mistake again.

What I do read into your incredibly full of yourself post is this...you think that a perfectly innocent rider is dead because he's a fool for not being able stop in time for an unforseeable immovable object. Correct? Am I right? Did I read that right????

Hi, I'm the thread. Please try reading me before applying your fingers to your keyboard.

This will help prevent other posters having to apply their palms to their faces.

Yes, the car should not be doing what it is doing, but unless it does it within your "stopping distance" (has happened to me once in the city), you should still be able to stop and avoid the crash.

Indeed, I believe the car driver is at fault in this case (yellow lines on his side, lack of visibility - it's plain stupid).

The cop was incredibly foolish, yes.

[Grubber]

I regularly button off when cresting blind rises. It's no different to approaching a blind corner.

I cringe when I see people gunning it over blind crests - some tools even use them for power wheelies.

What about people whose driveway is at the top of a blind crest? Do they deserve to have a fucktard like you plowing into their drivers door when they leave their own home?

What about farmers, driving their tractor along the road? Do they deserve to have to clean pieces of you and your SV out of the back of their tractor while they move between parts of their farm?

What about those farmers that have to move stock along the road? Do they deserve to have you suddenly plowing through their herd, slaughtering their livestock as you do it?

Pull your head in mate - your "I'm the most important person in the world, everyone else takes a backseat to me" attitude is pathetic.

Good stuff. Have to say i do the same on most occasions. Don't trust my instinct to well when it comes to blind crests. But in saying that, if you know the road well enough to know that it doesn't whip round a bend just as you go over the rise then one might still keep the throttle on. Most of what is being said here is all very interesting but at the end of the day it isn't going to bring Paul back. What we need to do is maybe learn what we can from this and perhaps button off a little when we crest a hill just in case.

[StoneY]

I am guessing a little here but from the photo it looks like the car is around 50 to 100 metres off the brow of the hill. If the rider was doing a comfortable 110k's i doubt he would have too much room to move when he saw the car. Can't really see how he could be of any fault. Simple fact of the matter is, the car just shouldn't have been there fullstop. No car No accident!

Police claim he was 60 meters approx from the brow of the hill
Allow that on his bike Paul might get a minor clearance of visibility the car did not have
Best guess ( I say guess) he MIGHT have seen the cop car in his path at 70 meters

I was at a training day at Taupo Racetrack about a month ago with Andrew Templeton of Roadsafe teaching us emergency stopping

I saw bikes take 50 meters to stop in a REAL effort at 80kmh
Best effort we saw was about 35 meters from an ABS equiped bike

So
Taking the 60 meters Police estimate, add 10 for height of rider on bike (as in LOS), add 20kmh speed to to a known stopping distance (tested on a track under instruction) and them riders knew they had to slam it on at that cone up ahead

Paul had to: see the car, react, apply brakes (whats that take 1 second?) at 100kmh there is 30 meters gone before his brakes start grabbing.........
40 meters left in which to stop/take escape route...........

He never stood a chance and now the cops are suggesting they will be 'assessing the speed' the rider was travelling, instead of looking at the fact the car did a 3 point turn in a blind spot

Paul carries NO BLAME here nor would any other rider, no matter how good they ride, this obstacle was unavoidable

And as stated above, the ONLY defense for not stopping in time is a vehicle pulling into your path within your braking distance. As the case is here

[shafty]

Sorry if this might seem to distract from the thread but....Yahoo has a Poll up FOR TODAY asking your opinon on this matter. Its at http://nz.yahoo.com - centre of page, Cheers, Shafty

[Ixion]

Paul had to: see the car, react, apply brakes (whats that take 1 second?) at 100kmh there is 30 meters gone before his brakes start grabbing......... 40 meters left in which to stop/take escape route......

One of the press articles mentions 30 metre skid marks. Which fits almost exactly with that calculation. The only imponderable is how much speed he had left when he hit. Which equates back to how far he flew after impact. So far the press has 7 metres, 30 metres, and 100 metres. take your pick.

It's also possible that a rider as experienced as he was would have been able to swerve and brake, he might have been trying to go round the rear.

[Squiggles]

*big post here*

let the investigation finish before we start accusing and defending on partial facts, huh?

Cool beans

[MSTRS:Me]

... he might have been trying to go round the rear.

Of course he could have been. And there may well have been a gap when he committed to that action. A gap that was then closed by the cop reversing into it as the second part of his 3 point turn.

[MSTRS:Me]

What about people whose driveway are at the top of a blind crest? .

Think about that. And then come back to us...

A blind crest is...for those approaching it. It's very rarely blind for those at the top. They can see what's coming both ways

[toycollector10]

I thought that Paul spoke very well with a well reasoned, logical attitude to the accident. The Police spokesman was just doing his job.

The Police need to implement a full-on training regime with their officers regarding making a 180 degree turn to pursue.

Adrenaline kills. Whether riding, flying your aircraft or driving your car or chasing that huge crayfish down too deep when you're out diving, for example.

If it's getting exciting you might be doing it wrong. The cop in this instance probably had a massive adrenaline hit and there you go. Maybe it was his first chance this week for a nice high speed pursuit, exciting stuff. He effed up big time and a rider's paid with his life. And the cop will pay with his job and by knowing that he's killed someone dead to rights.

And as usual, a thread on this website has denigrated to name calling, mud slinging and abuse. Mostly because some people can't comprehend plain written English and grammar.

[R6_kid:Me]

I am guessing a little here but from the photo it looks like the car is around 50 to 100 metres off the brow of the hill. If the rider was doing a comfortable 110k's i doubt he would have too much room to move when he saw the car. Can't really see how he could be of any fault. Simple fact of the matter is, the car just shouldn't have been there fullstop. No car No accident!

Assuming he was at 110kmh. The article on the front page of the Harold today stated that the motorcyclists body was 30m from the point of impact. The pictures on the Harold website appear to show the police car was spun approximately 90 degrees with the impact occuring in the rear quarter of the car.

Taking these points into account - you have a 200kg motorcycle which has spun an 1800kg car through 90degrees. That is a lot of force. We also have an 80kg(ish) body which as been thrown past the point of impact for some distance.

From what StoneY has said regarding distances etc I would assume that your average motorcyclist travelling at 100kmh would have had enough time to scrub off sufficient speed such that the impact would not have spun the car or thrown the rider 7m, 30m or 100m further down the road. At a guess I'd say if you'd taken 30m to react and had another 30m of efficient braking you're speed would be down to 40-50kmh, certainly not a very fatal speed. Most studies I've seen suggest a good motorcyclist should be able to stop from 100kmh in about 80m in fair conditions, or just over 100m in the wet - including reaction time.

[shafty]

I thought that Paul spoke very well with a well reasoned, logical attitude to the accident. The Police spokesman was just doing his job.

The Police need to implement a full-on training regime with their officers regarding making a 180 degree turn to pursue.

Adrenaline kills. Whether riding, flying your aircraft or driving your car or chasing that huge crayfish down too deep when you're out diving, for example.

If it's getting exciting you might be doing it wrong. The cop in this instance probably had a massive adrenaline hit and there you go. Maybe it was his first chance this week for a nice high speed pursuit, exciting stuff. He effed up big time and a rider's paid with his life. And the cop will pay with his job and by knowing that he's killed someone dead to rights.

And as usual, a thread on this website has denigrated to name calling, mud slinging and abuse. Mostly because some people can't comprehend plain written English and grammar.

Agreed re adrenaline.

Who was the other Guy in the Patrol car f no a Cop? An observer?:

One of the first people on the scene, neighbour Frank Wilkin, said he raced outside after hearing a "horrific boom" and saw a police officer and another man get out of the patrol car.

"They looked very, very shocked, they didn't know what the hell they'd hit. They were as white as sheets."