Motorcycle fatalities down in Australia

[peasea]

most of the bad riders are already dead?. Less harleys being sold?. just a couple of guesses

Haha, cunny funt, if anything it'll be the sportsbike riders sitting about in plaster for months on end. While actual numbers are down the HD market has weathered the fiscal storm rather well Down Under. Compare profit figures with some jap counterparts.

[rastuscat]

Interesting thought follows..............

Some have suggested that the problem of bike crashes could be made better by making it harder to get a motorcycle licence i.e. making people do more to qualify to ride, e.g. training , rider education etc.

The flip side of that is that making it harder to get licence means there will be more people who just can't be bothered, and who just go and buy a bike and ride it with no education at all.

I know a lot of middle aged blokes who wanted to get their licence, but didn't want to wait the 2 years before they could ride the $35K Harley in their garage. So they just went out and rode without worrying about the licence.

I know that has all sorts of implications (insurance etc) but it happens already, so making a licence harder to get will make the problem worse.

Just a note so people realize the implications of making it harder to get a licence.

[Blackflagged]

Making it harder to get a license will help - by delaying people getting on the Road. And make more people not bother to get a bike due to the hassles .Doesn`t stop cars u turning or not looking were there going.

[p.dath]

Interesting thought follows..............

Some have suggested that the problem of bike crashes could be made better by making it harder to get a motorcycle licence i.e. making people do more to qualify to ride, e.g. training , rider education etc.

You are of course right, but I'm still in favour of increased road user education (not just motorbikes).

It's a pretty simple concept - you need to train to become better. It's like everything in life.

So to suggest we shouldn't bother with increased training because a small minority wont do it is not a sufficiently good reason not to try at all. The mear fact that this minority doesn't believe training will help them tells me we have a fundamental education issue right there ...

The two biggest motorcycle accidents are:
1. Car pulling out in front of motorcycle claiming they didn't see motorcycle
2. Motorcycle having accident on a corner (usually a loss of control)
The first point is best addressed with education for all road users. The second is probably best addresses by increased skills training for motorcyclists.

[rastuscat]

The two biggest motorcycle accidents are:
1. Car pulling out in front of motorcycle claiming they didn't see motorcycle
2. Motorcycle having accident on a corner (usually a loss of control)
The first point is best addressed with education for all road users. The second is probably best addresses by increased skills training for motorcyclists.

I actually think more training is a good idea. Trouble is, as long as it is voluntary, the people who actually need it (i.e. those who think they know it all but don't), will not actually go and do it. It's part of the ego issue, thinking that we are all shit hot and not needing to learn. That's why the Sunday ride to Akaroa and back has become the Akaroa GP, and the deaths are starting to become evident.

Here's some thoughts on your points as above.
1. If we all wait for someone else to be better educated, we'll just keep having crashes. How about we try to be more visible, and ride more defensively? That gives us control of our destiny, not just admitting that's it's a problem with someone else, and waiting for someone else to solve it. ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN SAFETY COULD CHANGE THE CRASH RATE IN SECONDS, BUT WAITING FOR EVERYONE ELSE TO IMPROVE IS GOING TO TAKE A VERY, VERY LONG TIME. The dude in the mirror can change his destiny in a thought. People who pull out in front of motorcycles do so because they didn't expect to see one, and thus didn't see it. They don't just claim to have not seen the bike, that would effectively mean they did it deliberately. I put most SMIDSYs (Sorry Mate I Didn't See You) down to bad driving, not homicidal intent.
2. Loss of control is something you can avoid through experience. Cornering techniques are taught at most voluntary motorcycle courses already, but let's face it, most of us are learning from experience, not doing courses. Riding crap lines at the wrong speed in the wrong gear isn't too hard to avoid, and we'd all be better if we accept that we don't know it all already.

I think we're both right, we just look at the issues from a different angle.

[rastuscat]

Making it harder to get a license will help - by delaying people getting on the Road.

Hey, make it harder to get a licence by all means, but make it a very serious offence to operate any class of vehicle without the required licence. Like, lose your bike for as long as it takes you to get an appropriate licence. That way, if you ride a bike bigger than a 250 you lose it for as long as it takes you to get a licence.

[Ixion]

I think (without any evidence whatsoever) that the issue of the rider with NO class 6 is a bigger one than the rider on a 6L exceeding 250cc.

Oddly, ride with NO licence at all and it is quite a serious offence. But get ANY licence (even just a 1L) , and ride off on your 1200 Harley and it is a minor matter.

I suppose it is all part of the current licence regime where all thta matter is if you know the road code and can pass the scratchy test

[Blackflagged]

Making it impossible to get a license! now that will have a major impact, on reducing motorcycle accidents.
Maybe have a 100 step method.Step one You can ride a Moped between 2 and 4pm only,then after 10yrs, at step 30, you can ride a Big bike around the block and back.Make sure theres a lot of form filling at every step.

Bureaucracy is the combined organizational structure, procedures, protocols, and set of regulations in place to manage activity. As opposed to adhocracy, it is often represented by standardized procedure (rule-following) that guides the execution of most or all processes within the body; formal division of powers; hierarchy; and relationships, intended to anticipate needs and improve efficiency.

[FastBikeGear]

Just ended up on this incredible thread when searching for something else. The incredible thing about this thread is that a major transport body would ask P.dath what he thought was the cause of the reduced accidents!? Don't get me wrong I have know p.dath and he is smarter than 99 out of 100 people. But he is not a traffic safety researcher. It just shows how clueless the AA is.

It begs the question just who is doing genuine motorcycle safety research in N.Z? It seems incredible that neither the ACC or the Ministry of Transport has a traffic safety research department or employ a single person to do this work. As far as I know no one is paid to do traffic safety research in New Zealand, instead we have people trying to read the answers they want from extremely poor quality accident statistics. (Interpretations vary on who is reading the tea leaves for what agenda) Maybe some of the ACC motorcycle levies could be put to use doing some genuine motorcycle safety research in NZ so that we have more than speculation to start addressing the issue.

[Berries]

I doubt it. I am in the industry and offered my services to the ACC to help fill out some of the massive amounts of missing data that they based their engine size differential on, never heard back. Hardly surprising then that I have heard nothing from them to tell me what my $30 is being spent on either. Gee, thanks, that's one way of getting my support. Robbing bastards.

This is as good as it gets I'm afraid -

NZTA
Comment: A ‘High-risk motorcycle guide’ is currently being developed. Once this guide is completed, further information can be referenced.

Not the greatest terminology. I hope my bike isn't high risk.............

[Blackbird]

**Shakes head in disbelief at ACC**

You'd think that ACC would approach Professor Charley Lamb, Head of Business Management, Law and Marketing at Lincoln University. Charley is also Director of the Australasian Institute of Motorcycle Studies (AIMS) Project and recognised as a world authority.

There again, when Charley Lamb published his research findings, it discredited the validity of ACC statistics so hell might freeze over before they go to him.

If anyone missed Charley's data, there's a summary here: http://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2010/...ruths-and.html.

As a final comment, as motorcyclists, we often don't help our own cause. I'm thinking in particular about the need for re-skilling or upskilling in terms of good roadcraft as we all pick up bad habits or worse; never acquire good ones. I've recently put my mouth where my money is by putting myself through the Institute of Advanced Motoring motorcycle programme. Initially damaging in terms of ego, but unbelievably good in terms of outcome.

[scumdog]

The law is more rigidly enforced over the ditch, and the tolerances are negligible.

No! - surely not!

According to KB intelligencia it is NZ that is most excessively enforced, with zilch tolerance and has THE most pedantic laws that infrine EVERYBODYS rights...


And awsome thread-derdge!

[bogan]

According to KB intelligencia it is NZ that is most excessively enforced, with zilch tolerance and has THE most pedantic laws that infrine EVERYBODYS rights...

Hmmm, gross exaggerations, incomplete data, subgroups not taken into account; you don't happen to work for the government do you scummy?

[FJRider]

Hmmm, gross exaggerations, incomplete data, subgroups not taken into account; you don't happen to work for the government do you scummy?

He is refering to KB ...

The epitome of fact ... fair comment ... un-biased opinions ...

AND ...

A never ending source of useful information ...

[davereid]

I actually think more training is a good idea. Trouble is, as long as it is voluntary, the people who actually need it (i.e. those who think they know it all but don't), will not actually go and do it. It's part of the ego issue, thinking that we are all shit hot and not needing to learn. That's why the Sunday ride to Akaroa and back has become the Akaroa GP, and the deaths are starting to become evident.

Training is a valuable way of "fast tracking" experience.

The catch is, if we make the training compulsory before getting a licence, many just wont bother.

We will end up with less motorcyclists which marginalizes us even more.

And more of those riding simply will ride without the correct class of licence.

Realistically, the basic handing skills course, is a good start.

But IMHO the best way to go is to have a look at what people are actually doing, and provide a way to make it legal and safe.

Sadly, the proposed "Learner Approved Motorcycle" program is a good start but it fails on many levels.

Rastuscat is completely correct in his observation that many "new" riders are hopping on Harleys and other large cruisers that will not be LAMS approved.

So LAMS wont help these guys who feature highly in our crash stats. They want a large cruiser, they have been driving for years and are not concerned about the chance of being caught with the wrong class of licence. Or, they simply have a spare or two in another name.

I would argue that...

We should accept that people will ride large cruisers, so we should accommodate them with training, and accelerated programs to help make them safer.

My thoughts would be :

~ You can't treat someone who has 20 years car driving experience the same as a learner driver. And they will resist being treated that way.

~ Acknowledge that the real risk for these people is not lack of road craft. Its lack of motorcycle craft, so provide accelerated training.

~ These guys crash because of basic motorcycling skill problems - running wide, too much back brake, all of which can be trained out.

~ Use technology. ABS brakes for example could allow a rider a larger machine.

~ Use the motorcycle levy to make the training free. we would get more bikers, and less crashes.

Just my two-bobs worth.

I have formed my view, as I am in the effected (afflicted ?) age group.

I have been riding my entire life, but from time to time ride with newer riders, many of whom assume that I, like them are new to biking, especially if I am on my Harley.

They offer me frequent, and usually woeful advice on braking, counter-steering, and tyre selection.

I see what is happening, and I despair, as we react with more hurdles, more penalties, and harsher rules, when generally, if we provided the mechanisms, we could train many of these accidents out of experienced drivers, who simply lack motorcycle skills.