ACC full of crap: caught with pants around the ankles!

[Katman]

Because the same pie chart to which you refer clearly shows "Single vehicle, rider at fault, 26%" . 26% + 3% = 29%. 100% minus 29% = 71%.

So the 71% are the multi-vehicle accidents (of which motorcyclists have primary or partial responsibility in almost half the cases).

Dumbarse.

[dipshit]

Those are not MY figures. They are the official figures (and the ONLY official figures in new Zealand) from the MoT. If you don't like them because they don't sufficiently slag off motorcyclists, go argue with the Ministry.

Ixion, YOU are the one doing mental gymnastics to arrive at different conclusions that what the figures actually say!

Who do you think the public will have more credibility in if spokesmen for motorcyclists keep talking shit..??

[JMemonic]

Fuck me! No wonder motorcyclists are screwed and we have no national body as such, I don't get it a Professor (who happens to be a motorcyclist) goes and spends a year of an undergrads life doing the hard yards getting information together and its now available to you all (see post) and you lot are arguing over data that he manages to prove is incorrectly collected and collated.

We are fucked, nope truely, Katman and ilk will win, motorcycling will become an elitist hobby for the wealthy and politicians while the rest of us look back on our lives with misty eyes and tell our grand kids what it was like to actually ride motorcycles, one of the things the good Professor mentioned was the fact motorcyclists need a national voice, well this discussion kills that idea.

[The Pastor]

So if 60% of motorcycle accidents are caused by the motorcyclist how can driver education be the larger issue?

well it'll be 40% others fault

then it'll be some% riders fault

some % other factors - desiel, gravel, acts of god etc.

or something

[Katman]

one of the things the good Professor mentioned was the fact motorcyclists need a national voice

Did you also see the bit about the need to improve motorcyclists attitudes towards the way they ride?

[JMemonic]

Did you also see the bit about the need to improve motorcyclists attitudes towards the way they ride?

Had to take you off ignore again, this is getting annoying. Actually what he said to paraphrase was that all training to operate a vehicle of any kind in this country is sadly lacking, people are trained to pass a test not actually on how to drive or ride, everyone's attitude to how the operate a vehicle needs to be improved and he spoke of the red mist syndrome that affects people.

But that goes against your general theme that motorcyclists are the only ones at fault.

Interestingly he points to incentives that are run in the UK by the police, such as sponsorship of training events that have improved stats there. Also there was mention of a country where you can only start to learn to drive a car at 18, and its a two year process to even get you licence, however you can ride a moped/motorcycle of less than 49cc at the age of 15, this nation is under represented in the crash stats in comparison with other nations, the real difference is the education and training systems in place for all.

Anyhow thanks for the red rep, was wondering when I would collect one from you with regard to this thread, I was considering adding something witty and sarcastic but you might take it to heart.

[Swoop]

..that all training to operate a vehicle of any kind in this country is sadly lacking, people are trained to pass a test not actually on how to drive or ride,

If only the authorities would realise this. "Scratch and win" your licence... Don't people eat Cornflakes these days?

[dipshit]

Interestingly he points to incentives that are run in the UK by the police, such as sponsorship of training events that have improved stats there.

Well let's take a look at what some of that advanced training entails... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...cle-Road-Craft

Have a read through that excellent thread with outtakes from a UK police motorcycle training handbook.

Things like...

"These facts show that we are not good at learning from our experiences. Most riders involved in accidents do not accept that they contributed to it. If you think that you did not contribute to the accident, you will also think that you have nothing to learn from it, and your riding technique, together with any faults contributed to the accident, will remain unchanged." ...

... "• A false sense of personal invulnerability
• An illusion of control

These attitudes tend to prevent us from accepting that the risks of riding apply to us as well as to other people.

Critical self-awareness – the key to riding skill

Acknowledging the need to change attitudes is difficult because the evidence is statistical and most people trust their own experience rather than statistics. If you are a fast aggressive rider, you may not make the connection between your attitudes and the way you ride even if you have been in an accident. Research has shown that riders have a strong tendency to blame the road conditions or other road users rather than themselves for the accidents that they cause. This helps to explain why there is a strong tendency for riders to repeatedly make the same mistakes and become involved in the same kinds of accidents."


Now with the likes of BRONZ constantly telling the public and media that most motorcycle accidents are caused by other road users for political and PR reasons... your average motorcyclist begins to believe the bullshit as well and develops an attitude that their shit doesn't stink and it's all the other road users that are useless... and encourages them to shift blame and responsibility from themselves to others. This attitude is the total opposite direction we should be heading in.

Being safe on the roads is largely about attitude and your headspace. Without getting these basic things sorted first amongst riders out on the roads - things aren't going to change until the powers-at-be forced change upon us.

The bullshit from the likes of BRONZ will not be helping in the long run.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

No he didn't. All he said was that motorcyclists were often at fault - then went on to add that 25% were single vehicle accidents.

I'm not surprised you failed School C.

Just because there is no other vehicle at fault or involved does not automatically mean the rider of the bike is at fault... Just because there is no eviedence there as stock on the road (as it has wandered back into its paddock the same way it got out), or that the the rider hit un-marked freshly seal road (I have havd many close calls with this) or tried to dodge an on coming vehicle that was taking the corner wide or any number of reasons (yes including the rider at fault for what ever reason)

But again in the stats just because there is no other vehicle at fault or involved does not mean automatically the rider of the bike is at fault... it means that there was no other vehicle involved in the final accident... thats all nothing else.

[bogan]

Now with the likes of BRONZ constantly telling the public and media that most motorcycle accidents are cause by other road users for political and PR reasons... your average motorcyclist begins to believe the bullshit as well and develops an attitude that their shit doesn't stink and it's all the other road users that are useless... and encourages them to shift blame and responsibility from themselves to others. This attitude is total opposite direction we should be heading in.

Being safe on the roads is largely about attitude and your headspace. Without getting these basic things sorted first amongst riders out on the roads - things aren't going to change until the powers-at-be forced change upon us.

The bullshit from the likes of BRONZ will not be helping in the long run.

Agree with some of that, there is cause, and there is effect. While motorcyclicts are the cause of roughly 50% of their accidents, they have to deal with the effects of roughly 100% of the accidents. So it seems prudent to take extra care to avoid any accident, whether we are or are not the cause of it. However it also seems prudent to tell other motorists to stop hitting us!

And all of the advice should be backed up by the proper use of statistics and studies (which are completely available to the public), none of this blatant statistical manipulation that seems to be going on far too frequently.

[mashman]

"These facts show that we are not good at learning from our experiences. Most riders involved in accidents do not accept that they contributed to it. If you think that you did not contribute to the accident, you will also think that you have nothing to learn from it, and your riding technique, together with any faults contributed to the accident, will remain unchanged." ...

... "• A false sense of personal invulnerability
• An illusion of control

These attitudes tend to prevent us from accepting that the risks of riding apply to us as well as to other people.

Critical self-awareness – the key to riding skill

Acknowledging the need to change attitudes is difficult because the evidence is statistical and most people trust their own experience rather than statistics. If you are a fast aggressive rider, you may not make the connection between your attitudes and the way you ride even if you have been in an accident. Research has shown that riders have a strong tendency to blame the road conditions or other road users rather than themselves for the accidents that they cause. This helps to explain why there is a strong tendency for riders to repeatedly make the same mistakes and become involved in the same kinds of accidents."

not disagreeing, but it's hardly surprising that these people refuse to take accountability, primarily when you are encouraged to say nothing at the scene of an accident as you may well say something that invalidates your insurance. The "fact" that you ride for 10 years at warp speed without an accident lures you into a false sense of security, absolutely... so when you do have your accident, something else must have been to blame... i know that's what you're saying and that it refers to people in general, but it's always been that way...

All of the bullshit from "everyone" everywhere doesn't help... I don't particularly blame any single organisation, as it takes them all to make it work... and we all know, or hopefully know, that vilifying individuals/groups does fuck all for the situation... but it would seem that there are those that profit (not just financially) from the status quo... utter shame eh.

[JMemonic]

If only the authorities would realise this. "Scratch and win" your licence... Don't people eat Cornflakes these days?

It would seem not, along with weetbix etc.

Now with the likes of BRONZ constantly telling the public and media that most motorcycle accidents are cause by other road users for political and PR reasons... your average motorcyclist begins to believe the bullshit as well and develops an attitude that their shit doesn't stink and it's all the other road users that are useless... and encourages them to shift blame and responsibility from themselves to others. This attitude is total opposite direction we should be heading in.

Being safe on the roads is largely about attitude and your headspace. Without getting these basic things sorted first amongst riders out on the roads - things aren't going to change until the powers-at-be forced change upon us.

The bullshit from the likes of BRONZ will not be helping in the long run.

BRONZ are not the worst thing out there, and in some respects their actions are only the inverse of what the AA, ACC, MoT and politicians are putting out, a middle ground needs to be found.

You are right about some motorcyclists having the attitude we are never in the wrong, but the attitude of those who solely drive cars seems and thus the public at large seems to be motorcyclists bring all collisions on themselves. If we only looked at multiple motor vehicle accidents where a motorcycle and another vehicle collide there seems to be a predominance of "sorry mate I did not see you" and that unfortunately seems to be a catch all, which it should not be. As I said earlier there appears to be a need for more training all around, it was interesting the the stats showed a lower number of class 6 licence holders involved in multi vehicle collisions which could be due to a better awareness.

One must not discount the media's involvement in the public perception (and possibly some motorcyclists) that we as motorcyclists are always at fault, it would be hard to disagree they do have a tendency to sensationalise any collision they get the opportunity to and if the blame can be attributed in some manner to the rider involved the story will last days and be huge on the front page, where as if it is suspected that a car is at fault it will be a brief snippet in the national media and page two or three in the local area.

Look at the attention that was drawn to the bloke doing a runner from the police late last year? in Auckland and the coverage of the pursuit or the U-turns that involved Police and motorcycles, the tendency has been to attempt to shift blame onto the bike, in the last case a witness (if thats what you could call him) was found that testified on national television that he heard the bike and by the sound alone believed the bike was travelling at excessive speeds, this is what the public see, hear and believe. This will remain the perception for most even when the results of the investigations are finally made public, regardless of the final results, (my apologies to the family and friends of the rider for dragging this up but I needed an example that was fresh in minds).

Interestingly I understand there were 4 or 5 similar incidents involving members of the public colliding with the Police doing the same manoeuvre in cars that never made national news in the time between the collision on the West coast and the one I refer to above.

Now I am not trying to paint the Police in a bad light here just using two cases that have made the national media that help form and reinforce perceptions.

It in some ways is also that perception that draws the folks who see the roads as a race track to motorcycling, they see it as being a way to be for want of better terms antisocial, not unlike the idiot boyracers, I know some very genuine car enthusiasts who are in their adult years, they have been into modified cars for years, yet these folks are now tared and feathers as boy racers, these are the kind of folks who take pride in building up a mostly standard looking car with a different engine, running gear etc fitted. The perception of the masses is because they do this they are boy racers or having a mid life crisis and trying to be boys again, yet they are enjoying what they have been doing for years.

Motorcycles are an easy group to target, some politicians have not gotten into their heads not all riders are gang members or for that matter idiots, nor can they comprehend motorcycling can be a social activity no different from their MG club or Rugby club etc. And while motorcyclists are on both sides of the equation both being silly buggers and calling for what is not far off their ultimate goal of banning bikes we will collectively lose.

What perhaps is called for is a national federation of clubs that can speak with one voice, it would need to involve the militant, (as it seems to be perceived), BRONZ (although I am really adverse to that term for them perhaps proactive would be better), some organisation that would satisfy the likes of Katman and his screeching that motorcyclist are all at fault except him, and all the other great organisations out there working promoting safer and enjoyable riding. On that note not all BRONZ regions are the same, hell I understand they don't even have a national committee currently, please inform me if I am wrong.

Oh and on the training this apparently the powers that be don't like the concept as there is evidence to say the more training folks get the more over confident they become, this increases the risks they take (out of Victoria again as if that Aussie states policies are the best for us). Personally I believe training is always beneficial, and you can never have to much.

If you see a rider doing stupid things you have two choices, pull over and let them go be an idiot or calmly talk to them and advise them of how to improve, at the end of the day its their choice, and if everyone just went by that we might get on better.

BTW I hate hearing about the most bins wins syndrome that affects some but they are the idiot few not the majority, they also happen to be the most vocal, that's what needs to change, yelling at them has not worked, screaming from a soapbox has not worked, why because it just reinforces the view what they are doing is cool and anti social, ignore them and they will lose.

[FatHead]

It would seem not, along with weetbix etc.



BRONZ are not the worst thing out there, and in some respects their actions are only the inverse of what the AA, ACC, MoT and politicians are putting out, a middle ground needs to be found.

You are right about some motorcyclists having the attitude we are never in the wrong, but the attitude of those who solely drive cars seems and thus the public at large seems to be motorcyclists bring all collisions on themselves. If we only looked at multiple motor vehicle accidents where a motorcycle and another vehicle collide there seems to be a predominance of "sorry mate I did not see you" and that unfortunately seems to be a catch all, which it should not be. As I said earlier there appears to be a need for more training all around, it was interesting the the stats showed a lower number of class 6 licence holders involved in multi vehicle collisions which could be due to a better awareness.

One must not discount the media's involvement in the public perception (and possibly some motorcyclists) that we as motorcyclists are always at fault, it would be hard to disagree they do have a tendency to sensationalise any collision they get the opportunity to and if the blame can be attributed in some manner to the rider involved the story will last days and be huge on the front page, where as if it is suspected that a car is at fault it will be a brief snippet in the national media and page two or three in the local area.

Look at the attention that was drawn to the bloke doing a runner from the police late last year? in Auckland and the coverage of the pursuit or the U-turns that involved Police and motorcycles, the tendency has been to attempt to shift blame onto the bike, in the last case a witness (if thats what you could call him) was found that testified on national television that he heard the bike and by the sound alone believed the bike was travelling at excessive speeds, this is what the public see, hear and believe. This will remain the perception for most even when the results of the investigations are finally made public, regardless of the final results, (my apologies to the family and friends of the rider for dragging this up but I needed an example that was fresh in minds).

Interestingly I understand there were 4 or 5 similar incidents involving members of the public colliding with the Police doing the same manoeuvre in cars that never made national news in the time between the collision on the West coast and the one I refer to above.

Now I am not trying to paint the Police in a bad light here just using two cases that have made the national media that help form and reinforce perceptions.

It in some ways is also that perception that draws the folks who see the roads as a race track to motorcycling, they see it as being a way to be for want of better terms antisocial, not unlike the idiot boyracers, I know some very genuine car enthusiasts who are in their adult years, they have been into modified cars for years, yet these folks are now tared and feathers as boy racers, these are the kind of folks who take pride in building up a mostly standard looking car with a different engine, running gear etc fitted. The perception of the masses is because they do this they are boy racers or having a mid life crisis and trying to be boys again, yet they are enjoying what they have been doing for years.

Motorcycles are an easy group to target, some politicians have not gotten into their heads not all riders are gang members or for that matter idiots, nor can they comprehend motorcycling can be a social activity no different from their MG club or Rugby club etc. And while motorcyclists are on both sides of the equation both being silly buggers and calling for what is not far off their ultimate goal of banning bikes we will collectively lose.

What perhaps is called for is a national federation of clubs that can speak with one voice, it would need to involve the militant, (as it seems to be perceived), BRONZ (although I am really adverse to that term for them perhaps proactive would be better), some organisation that would satisfy the likes of Katman and his screeching that motorcyclist are all at fault except him, and all the other great organisations out there working promoting safer and enjoyable riding. On that note not all BRONZ regions are the same, hell I understand they don't even have a national committee currently, please inform me if I am wrong.

Oh and on the training this apparently the powers that be don't like the concept as there is evidence to say the more training folks get the more over confident they become, this increases the risks they take (out of Victoria again as if that Aussie states policies are the best for us). Personally I believe training is always beneficial, and you can never have to much.

If you see a rider doing stupid things you have two choices, pull over and let them go be an idiot or calmly talk to them and advise them of how to improve, at the end of the day its their choice, and if everyone just went by that we might get on better.

BTW I hate hearing about the most bins wins syndrome that affects some but they are the idiot few not the majority, they also happen to be the most vocal, that's what needs to change, yelling at them has not worked, screaming from a soapbox has not worked, why because it just reinforces the view what they are doing is cool and anti social, ignore them and they will lose.

Bling that man very good post well said.

[MiniFlick]

we agree.minilicka and pornoshauno that is.those acc f-wits just have it in for bikers.They probly had nothin better to do sitting in the rush hour traffic one morning watching bikers scoot past them and thought.....i know lets get these bikers!!hmmmm lets increase thier levies aye.fkn assholes,i just wanna smash thier smirky smiles off thier fukfaces and do a burnout in thier parking spaces at acc headquarters.and then when i get really angry....... Yeah i reckon they need to target the steel coffin drivers,there is more of them so that means they are having more crashes?