General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Katman]

What's FACT is that EVERY accident has many many factors that have to fall true before the accident occurs. Quite a few of those are able to be managed, some completely eliminated. Human behaviour isn't one of those. Get used to it.

Human behaviour is very often the very first step in that chain of factors.

Remove or alter any one step and the outcome also alters.

[oneofsix]

Aviation and medical address the other contributing factors as well as the human factor. As stated we don't get to pick and chose the humans that ride bikes and there is an wave of new or returning riders that would not usually consider a bike. every time someone tries to start a thread to discuss addressing the non-rider factors it gets hijacked by people beating the same drum. If the roads can be rebuilt and redirected for the sake of heavy transport then whats wrong with a growing group of motorcyclists asking that their needs also be addressed?

[Katman]

Aviation and medical address the other contributing factors as well as the human factor. As stated we don't get to pick and chose the humans that ride bikes and there is an wave of new or returning riders that would not usually consider a bike. every time someone tries to start a thread to discuss addressing the non-rider factors it gets hijacked by people beating the same drum. If the roads can be rebuilt and redirected for the sake of heavy transport then whats wrong with a growing group of motorcyclists asking that their needs also be addressed?

And that's the problem.

Too many people expect every other factor to be changed instead of realising the easiest answer is to change the factor that they add to the equation.

[oneofsix]

And that's the problem.

Too many people expect every other factor to be changed instead of realising the easiest answer is to change the factor that they add to the equation.

well mis-read sir and a perfect example of the hijack

[Maha]

Human behaviour is very often the very first step in that chain of factors.

Remove or alter any one step and the outcome also alters.

Once again I have to agree (damn thats twice today)
Conditions are not in control of your bike, you are.
And by being in control, the decisions that you make at any one time can effect what happens within the next few seconds or so, cos' thats all it takes.

[Katman]

well mis-read sir and a perfect example of the hijack

I didn't mis-read it at all.

Imagine you were one of those slices of Swiss Cheese.

Instead of trying to arrange to have any one of the other slices moved around would it not be easier to just take one step to the side yourself?

[Ocean1]

Human behaviour is very often the very first step in that chain of factors.

Remove or alter any one step and the outcome also alters.

Correct. But you can't change that variable.

And that's the problem.

Too many people expect every other factor to be changed instead of realising the easiest answer is to change the factor that they add to the equation.

It's not the easiest factor to change, though. It's so difficult to change general population behaviour that no single government has ever managed it without resorting to direct force.

Most other organisations attempting to do it are called religions. You’re too abrasive to have much effect, there, but feel free to offer sermons. I’ll be busy.

[Katman]

It's not the easiest factor to change, though. It's so difficult to change general population behaviour that no single government has ever managed it without resorting to direct force.

It's not about trying to change others though.

It's about trying to make people realise the gains to be had from changing themselves.

People changing themselves is a piece of piss.

[Ocean1]

It's not about trying to change others though.

It's about trying to make people realise the gains to be had from changing themselves.

People changing themselves is a piece of piss.

Perhaps. But any suggestion that they need to change presupposes that they haven't got valid reasons to behave the way they do. It's insulting.

You're free to behave how you think suits you best. So is everyone else.

[Katman]

Perhaps. But any suggestion that they need to change presupposes that they haven't got valid reasons to behave the way they do. It's insulting.

You're free to behave how you think suits you best. So is everyone else.

Refer post #399.

[terbang]

Or they could just be conveniently turning a blind eye to the glaring fact that the number 1 contributing factor to the accident was reckless/careless management by the rider.

(And before anyone jumps up and down, I'm not saying every accident falls into that category, but many definitely do).

You are missing the point, there is no real number 1 contributing factor. The final act (say went wide on a LH bend and hit a car) along with the latent failures (poor training, hazardous attitudes, bad road, poor maintenance ETC) that may have been sitting there for years will lead to the real number one. An accident. In the case of the Swiss cheese model, all the holes lined up, an accident is inevitable.

Though as pilots, surgeons, riders we are the last line of defence and history has proven that we aren't too good at that.

In aviation we got rid of this ancient finger pointing exercise shortly after NZ's biggest single loss of life, the Mt Erebus incident, and learnt how to establish the causes of accidents for the purpose of prevention.

In other words, we started to learn from our mistakes!

[oneofsix]

I didn't mis-read it at all.

Imagine you were one of those slices of Swiss Cheese.

Instead of trying to arrange to have any one of the other slices moved around would it not be easier to just take one step to the side yourself?

so one rider side steps their hole but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't. Well done you've saved yourself at the expense of others. And yes you mis-read or more exactly choose what you read and ignored the rest.
Also refer Terbangs last post.

[The Stranger:Me]

Maybe your impression of what it is that would make you awesome is the problem Noel.

You don't have to be the fastest around a corner to be awesome.

It does help to be alive if you want to be awesome though.

Perhaps, but it's not about me (that was an example about learning).
For Jonny awesome may be a hill start, for Mary awesome may be a U turn etc.

Don't we all strive to be better at what we do?
Are you satisfied with mediocrity in your work, or as a parent, lover etc?
If I'm going to be bothered doing something, I'm going to give it my best - try and improve, lern and better myself (as per previous post) that's just human nature isn't it? Would you rather remove that attitude from human nature?

Well awesomeness very often outlast death Katman and the good thing about death in such circumstances is that you rarely fall from grace thereafter so the legend lives on.

[The Stranger:Me]

Which do you consider more 'awesome' Noel?

The fastest rider who one day fucks up a corner killing himself and the poor sod coming the other way, or the old guy who's ridden all his life and gotten a lifetime of enjoyment out of motorcycling?

Well, as I've often said.
I'd rather live than be alive - and if that kills me so be it.
If you'd care to give me an example of the latter though, because the only ones I know are old lonely sad fucks otherwise I'll take Paul (Beyond) over any of them any day thank you.
He's a hell of a nice guy, quiet, reserved, polite, friendly, well spoken and fast.

[Ender EnZed]

Perhaps. But any suggestion that they need to change presupposes that they haven't got valid reasons to behave the way they do. It's insulting.

I'm sure everyone has a valid reason for riding dangerously. It's easier. I don't think that means we should accept it.

You're free to behave how you think suits you best. So is everyone else.

This simply isn't the case though. We do not live in anarchy. There are any number of things that I can't do even though it would suit me better to do so.

Riding at 100mph on SH1 is an example. I could do this but if I kept it up then sooner or later there would be consequences that would eventually result in me going to jail. It suits some people to rape and murder.

Why should we hold back from saying anything that could be interpreted (quite rightly so in some cases) as offensive or interfering when we see or hear about someone behaving in a way that they (and everyone else) would clearly be better off not to? Is it just that their feelings might get hurt?