More Mach111 and bikes from 1970

[nudemetalz]

I personally think Mach111 is such a cool name for the Kawasaki H1, It really endears it's personality for being a weapon.

Dad said that the fastback Commando's (hardly slow in their day also) were toast by the Kwaka so don't think the Rocket 111 was much quicker than the Nortons.

[Bonez]

I personally think Mach111 is such a cool name for the Kawasaki H1, It really endears it's personality for being a weapon.

Dad said that the fastback Commando's (hardly slow in their day also) were toast by the Kwaka so don't think the Rocket 111 was much quicker than the Nortons.

Motu was talking about these- http://www.triumph.co.uk/uk/263.aspx

[nudemetalz]

ah oops, just re-read it....duh me !!
I thought it was one of these,..a Beeza Rocket 111

[Bonez]

ah oops, just re-read it....duh me !!
I thought it was one of these,..a Beeza Rocket 111

Easy mistake. A model Triumph cloned in the guise of the trident.

[Motu]

Yeah,I was trying to think of what these days would have the same WOW! factor as the Mach III had back then - Tridents and Rockets,Commandos and CB750s were common,so was the Mach III,but it had more cred....or noting power in the day.

They were all fast,but the Trident and Commando were superior to the Jap bikes because the handling was a good match for the power - I prefered the Trident because it had a power kick at 4500rpm and reved off the red line,handled great and made a fantastic noise....the Commando had lighter handling and a motor like a tractor,you didn't need to change gear,just dial it on.

[nudemetalz]

What was the reliability factor of the British bikes compared to the Mach111 ?
I know the Kwaks oiled plugs and the early CDI's packed a sad occasionally.

Were the Tridents and Commando's reliable when new(ish) ?

[Motu]

I never owned a new British bike,but the unreliability was a bit of a myth,there were a couple of reasons for that.Back then owners did their own repairs and maintenance,no sending it to the shop for a service,and they were ham fisted with no mechainical skills whatsoever.Things like timing covers and primary chaincases were alloy castings with a thin joint face and no gasket,just relying on the perfection of the faces for oil sealing - these were knocked off with a hammer and screwdriver,screws overtightend and stripped,the chaincase was a big casting and easily distorted,specially if you were as ignorant as the owners - this abuse was 85% the reason for the leaks and breakdowns.

They were also not really designed to be oil tight,it was the standard of the day....and I'm not being funny there,it was the world wide standard - oil breathers just dripped onto the road,oil seals were often just felt rings.The Hillman Hunter,which was made right up to the early 80s never had a timing cover oil seal,just a slinger and reverse worm,it couldn't help but leak.

By the late 60s the British were in the dying throws of motor vehicle production,there are plenty of books about it - but the Unions were strangling industry,cars and bikes were low production,there was no money to put into new designs,it was just hopeless and finaly they were put out of their misery.The bikes had been designed in the late 40s....6.5:1 compression,cast iron cyl heads,low quality fuel,crap tyres,they were made for the family man to get to work.But of course you can't stop a young man from wanting to go a bit faster.So by the late 60s the compression was 9:1,sometimes 10.5:1 on production bikes,race cams were standard,big twin carbs - these motors were putting out double the HP they were originaly designed for...and the clutch,and the gearbox,and the frame - they were more than at the end of their development cycle,they were 10yrs past it.

I've never rubbished British bikes,they were good in their day,the ones I rode were mostly 20 yrs old,I reckon they stood up well.

I bought my first new Japanese bike in 1971 - a spark plug lasted a couple of weeks,cleaned it and threw it away next week.About the same as the BSA Bantam....

[nudemetalz]

wow,...Motu,...great explanation !!
Yes, I've read books etc which says the same as what you've stated.
The Japanese brought reliability to the bike scene. Look at the Honda CB-750K. May not have handled the best or went the best but sure was oil-tight and reliable.

[Jantar]

- I prefered the Trident because it had a power kick at 4500rpm and reved off the red line,handled great and made a fantastic noise....the Commando had lighter handling and a motor like a tractor,you didn't need to change gear,just dial it on.

you remember these bikes well Motu. My favourite Brit bike of the day was the Commando and for the very reasons you state. It handled gravel roads with ease, and on the twisty sealed roads you could just leave it in 3rd and dial on as much torque as you wanted. Many people didn't like the fact that the motor mounts tended to loosen over time, but these mounts were a conical rubber mount and it was a simple job to torque them up every 1000 miles or so.

Edit: I must learn to spell Commando.

[Bonez]

you remember these bikes well Motu. My favourite Brit bike of the day was the Cammando and for the very reasons you state. It handled gravel roads with ease, and on the twisty sealed roads you could just leave it in 3rd and dial on as much torque as you wanted. Many people didn't like the fact that the motor mounts tended to loosen over time, but these mounts were a conical rubber mount and it was a simple job to torque them up every 1000 miles or so.

"Just Bikes" here in Parmerston North has a white 850 Commando, also a Mk1 Le Mans for those interested.

[Ixion]

What was the reliability factor of the British bikes compared to the Mach111 ?
I know the Kwaks oiled plugs and the early CDI's packed a sad occasionally.

Were the Tridents and Commando's reliable when new(ish) ?

Interesting question. I believe myself that the Brit bikes of the 60's were MORE reliable than the Jap ones in terms of major failure. But less reliable in terms of MINOR failure.

What I mean by that is that the Brits tended to have lots of annoying but minor stuff break down/fall off etc. Fix it yourself after work type failures. But it was pretty unusual for them to actually break in a big way. There were exceptions , but by the 60's the notorious failures of the 50s (preunit Triumph primary chains !!) had largely been dealt to. And even the 50's machines were, with a few exceptions (those damn primary chains) pretty robust. It was nothing unusal for a bike to go 10 years with no more than amateur maintainence .

Jap bikes on the other hand were pretty much free of those annoying "damn I'll have to fix that when I get home" problems. But unpleasantly prone to failing in a big and nasty way. Gearbox failures, broken timing chains, holed pistons - they were a regular part of life for Jappa owners. Didn't happen too often, but often enough , and when they did they were expensive.

And personally, I reckon that Jap electrics are less reliable than those of Mr Lucas. Honda regulators anyone? Suzuki stators ? And the quality of Yamaha electrics is shit, IMHO.Most reliable bike electric thingy I've ever encountered was the Lucas K2F magneto.

[Rhino]

I flatted with a mate from work in the 70's who had one of the original Norton Commando 750 Fastback models. At the time I was riding a Yamaha TX650. rode the Commando several times. It handled superbly. The frame was based on the legendary "featherbed" frame. I remember the rubber engine mounts (designed to cut down the transmission of vibration to frame/rider from memory.) When well maintained they were a wonderful bike.

The 850 never seemed to generate the same enthusiasm amongst riders as the 750.

[Motu]

Amaizingly the Commando was a slap up job,just a gap filler until they could design a better bike - but they fluked a one off success,beautiful styling and performance.The frame was not the featherbed,it was far lighter with a big backbone tube,personaly I think it handled better than the featherbed,much more flickable...fitted with my style more than the steady as a rock but pick the perfect line featherbed.

One thing I hate about Jap electrics,but was one of the better things old Joe did - colour coding.....black for earth,red for live,green for lights,brown for switched ,etc.It just made such perfect sense and I still get trapped tracing black earths.Why the hell they change colour mid loom I'll never know - like,why does a orange wire plug into a blue wire? It just shouldn't happen...I get upset with things like that,old Joe treated me right,didn't pull silly tricks.

[Bonez]

And personally, I reckon that Jap electrics are less reliable than those of Mr Lucas. Honda regulators anyone? Suzuki stators ?.

Point taken. Done high millage on both makes though with no such issues. Maybe I'm just lucky. Ask Dad about Lucas electrics.