Speeding? Spit please....

[Indoo]

Just heard on the shorts for the news, that soon, if you are caught speeding, they can get a DNA swab.. wtf?
Just doesn't sound right to me, anyone know anything more? News sites haven't got anything yet..

Not true, but it seems like a few people didn't quite understand that.

No cops going to ask a speeder with no criminal history for a DNA sample, it simply won't happen and even if he does get it, he will get a reaming from his bosses for the waste of resources.

They might ask a criminal who they catch speeding if he wants too but thats about it. And even if you do give DNA and its matched to a crime scene it still can't be used in court without a second sample which can't be obtained unless its a specified offence, ie burgulary/rape etc.

A guy whose given a voluntarily DNA sample who then goes and breaks into a car leaving some blood inside which is matched back to him cannot be convicted on that alone unless a second blood sample is obtained which he has to voluntarily give.

As with most other laws in this country suprisingly enough the current DNA legislation favours the criminal.

[bugjuice]

anyone who's in the mind of doing something criminal aren't going to give a swab anyway. So why should you stock up on goody-two-shoe DNA that'll never be used?

I have nothing to hide, but feel like it'd be an invasion of big brother..

[Firefight]

anyone who's in the mind of doing something criminal aren't going to give a swab anyway. So why should you stock up on goody-two-shoe DNA that'll never be used?

I have nothing to hide, but I'd like it'd be invaded by my brother..

bloody hell Kit, thats just sick. No way we want you in fight club now



F/F

[Cookie]

I'll happily supply a DNA sample for a specific reason - like those rapes in country NSW - all the town gave a sample and the caught him.

If it's voluntary and 'just in case' then they can get fucked.

I'm with you there.

Personally, I'd support it say for people who have certain convictions.

Burglary for example is sometimes just the beginning of a career that includes some even more nasty stuff - so yeah, hold them down if necessary and get a sample - could be handy later on - but for 62km in a 50km zone? Nah - I'll keep my DNA to myself thanks. That is crossing a line for me (even me).

[madboy]

...but with LCN DNA a sample of spit might be quite sufficient to obtain a sample...

If any cop asks me to spit on them following pinging me for speeding, I'd be glad to oblidge.

[Pixie]

In NZ DNA is collected on a voluntary basis for the national data bank. Persons convicted of specified offences can be compelled to give a sample for the data bank.

There is also a suspectcs data bank that allows for samples to be collected from suspects and persons of interest for the purpose of comparing their DNA with specific crime scene DNA. Specifically for the purpose of elimination. These samples aren't stored on any national data bank once they have been processed in relation to the matter at hand.

Persons of interest who refuse to give a suspect sample will of course become somewhat more interesting to police than people you willingly supply a sample.

The prick that burgled my house didn't volunteer,not that I'm complaining,he left his DNA on the broken window.
But what's the point?He was already in jail when they pinned my and 43 other burglaries to him.So he just gets his slate cleaned with concurrent sentences.
Every crime should add time.

[Wolf]

While the DNA database could prove handy for confirming or eliminating suspects, as has been mentioned, there is the issue of security. Most clerical workers I have encountered - and I have no reason to believe otherwise about the civvies employed by the police force, Justice Dept or any other organisation likely to have access to the data - are fucking morons when it comes to computer security. Password too difficult? Write it on a Post-it and stick it on the monitor or cheapen the regular password expiry by using the same wanky password and change the number at the end each time it expires (incrementing by one each time), share their passwords with their mates or coworkers, use such brillaintly confusing passwords as "123456" or "qwerty" or any real word in any known language, download all sorts of shit onto their computers, follow links in emails because the sender asked them to, open attached files on emails for the same reason and - if they are as retarded as a large number tested by security consultants - willingly give their password to complete strangers in the street in exchange for bars of chocolate or ballpoint pens.

Do I want any information at all about me stored anywhere? No fucking way. Unfortunately there is already a plethora of personal and private info about me stored out there safeguarded only by the passwords of various clerical workers - in excess of 80% of whom are incompetent when it comes to basic security according to various surveys. There's enough crap about me freely available to pretty much any script kiddy without me adding my genetic code to the mix.

And as to having "nothing to hide": a convicted cracker in the states admitted that if someone cut her or her friends off on the freeway they would get the licence plate number, crack the DMV, get the person's identity, find out their social security number, then do a check on what hire purchases they have, they then would delete the records of the last few payments from the appropriate finance company's database so that the person who cut them of would end up getting their car and household goods repossessed. It would then be up to them to use their banks records to prove they had paid after all and possibly get their stuff back - after a large mount of inconvenience.

The crackers concerned had to crack several institutions to pull this off and had to have access to the appropriate passwords for a large number of people who had the rights to do what they wanted to achieve - and this was a fair few years ago now so all they had was DMV, the IRS, DHSS and a few credit companies to play with...

Imagine what they could do now or if they had a large database full of genetic data at their disposal. Sure, eventually it will be discovered that the genetic data was tampered with and the error will be corrected - but in the meantime your reputation has been ruined and you've spent five weeks in jail being fucked up the arse by some huge gang member... pretty disproportionate punishment for loudly lane-splitting past some psychotic little script kiddy...

[spudchucka]

If any cop asks me to spit on them following pinging me for speeding, I'd be glad to oblidge.

I'm sure you would, I'm also sure you'd get locked up for assault. Your choice.

[spudchucka]

The prick that burgled my house didn't volunteer,not that I'm complaining,he left his DNA on the broken window.
But what's the point?He was already in jail when they pinned my and 43 other burglaries to him.So he just gets his slate cleaned with concurrent sentences.
Every crime should add time.

Burglary carries a maximum sentence of ten years imprisonment. You need to be asking our polititians why such an offender isn't serving ten years, minimum. 44 burglary offences should equal 440 years in jail.

[spudchucka]

While the DNA database could prove handy for confirming or eliminating suspects, as has been mentioned, there is the issue of security. Most clerical workers I have encountered - and I have no reason to believe otherwise about the civvies employed by the police force, Justice Dept or any other organisation likely to have access to the data - are fucking morons when it comes to computer security. .

The DNA data bank is managed wholely and solely by the ESR, who are a bunch of scientists, not cops or any other form of civil servant. The stored data isn't directly accessible by police staff. Police supply samples collected from subjects , from crime scenes and crime exhibits, the ESR do all the analysis and supply the police with reports as to the results.

The ESR scientists are then summonsed to court to give evidence as to their procedures and methods. If their practices aren't secure then the evidence won't be admissable.

If the police start losing cases because the ESR aren't doing their job properly then they (ESR) will likely lose the contract to supply those services to the police. Therefore it is in the interest of the police and ESR to ensure all practices concerning the DNA data bank are water tight and will withstand the utmost scrutiny.

[spudchucka]

The issue is in that DNA is a genetic blueprint for an individual and contains information far beyond simple identity.

Right, like they might secretly start cloning us from our DNA samples and sending our clones to work in the mines on Mars.

In actual fact DNA from every NZ'r is available in the form of a blood sample taken at birth in a heel prick test where the blood is stored on blotting paper. Strangley enough no evil scientists have yet sabotaged this national DNA data bank.

[Wolf]

The DNA data bank is managed wholely and solely by the ESR, who are a bunch of scientists, not cops or any other form of civil servant. The stored data isn't directly accessible by police staff. Police supply samples collected from subjects , from crime scenes and crime exhibits, the ESR do all the analysis and supply the police with reports as to the results.

The ESR scientists are then summonsed to court to give evidence as to their procedures and methods. If their practices aren't secure then the evidence won't be admissable.

If the police start losing cases because the ESR aren't doing their job properly then they (ESR) will likely lose the contract to supply those services to the police. Therefore it is in the interest of the police and ESR to ensure all practices concerning the DNA data bank are water tight and will withstand the utmost scrutiny.

The ESR people are still human and I've worked with too many scientists in the past to have a lot of faith in their ability to be totally secure. In fact, I know a few (fortunately for us all they don't work at the ESR but instead at a university) whose own arrogance would make them the biggest security threat to any organisation - "I've got fifteen different degrees in science, of course I know what I'm doing with a computer!" (and probably thinks the rest of the planet is too thick to work out their password is "e=mc2") At least you can tell some clerical types where they're going wrong but some of the scientists I've met are, shall we say, "erroneously overconfident in their own eptitude".

If someone made a concerted effort to crack the ESR computers, I suspect they could. People have cracked some pretty secure places and most of the attacks have relied on the human factor somewhere along the way. Admittedly, it would take another scientist to corrupt the data in a sufficiently undetectable and convincing way to fool the researchers into perverting the course of justice but the data in the databank itself could be useful and valuable if copied and sold to the right places.

[spudchucka]

I'm not suggesting that the ESR is infallible or that because the place is full of scientists they aren't subject to human error. As for computer hacking, it seems that no matter how good your security is there will always be some clever bugger that is capable of screwing with it. However I don't see that as a reason to not pursue the crime solving capability that the national DNA data bank provides.

Edmond Locard, a pioneer of modern forensic science propagated the saying, "Every contact leaves a trace". Soon with LCN DNA a criminal won't be able to fart at a crime scene without leaving behind trace DNA. To me thats a good thing.

[The Stranger:Me]

The national DNA database is a powerfull anti crime / crime fighting tool. Increasing the the number of samples that are in the database increases the accuracy of the science and enhances the compelling nature of the evidence. Thats why the cops are always looking to obtain voluntary samples.

We all want crime solved and as stated by Big Dave I would be happy to co-operate to assist with the resolution of a specific incident.

It is not the crime solving issue that concerns me, it is when the govt decides that hey we have this large bank of information available to us lets start using for hunting witches (not that long ago actually) or lets open it up to employers or mdeical or life insurance companies. There many other possibilities and as time goes on and more and more is learned about DNA and the human genome more possibilities will open up.

It is not the intended purpose which concerns me and quite frankly you have absolutely no control over the other possibilities.

[Wolf]

However I don't see that as a reason to not pursue the crime solving capability that the national DNA data bank provides.

Edmond Locard, a pioneer of modern forensic science propagated the saying, "Every contact leaves a trace". Soon with LCN DNA a criminal won't be able to fart at a crime scene without leaving behind trace DNA. To me thats a good thing.

I have no problem with that - provided that only suspects are tested and those who are eliminated have their data wiped afterwards (as promptly as possible to lessen the potential risk that their data is compromised whilst being tested) but I would have issue with the data bank containing DNA data about pretty much everyone in NZ "just in case" it might be needed.

There have been well attested issues with companies in the States (that Land of the Free) having DNA tests done as part of the medical examination they required of prospective employees and then rejecting people because the tests suggest they may have a propensity toward some congenital illness. Obviously it is the land of the "Free to Surrepticiously DNA Test People and Apply Eugenic Theories to the Job Selection Process."

Fair enough making sure your prospective employee does not currently have some illness/medical issue that might impair their ability to work but to reject someone who is healthy because current gene theory suggests they may possibly have almost a .05% chance of contracting cancer in the future is obscene.

Insurance companies have commisioned similar tests and used the data to "justify" inserting clauses to the effect that certain illnesses are not covered (or, worse, "anything to do with your lungs" which means that asbestosis is not covered owing to a suspected "congenital defect") or the cover is there at the cost of increased premiums.

I could imagine that genetic data would be quite valuable to the less than scrupulous members of the public and what someone will pay for, another will obtain. Hence I am opposed to any long-term storage of genetic data of members of the general public. I have no faith that it is secure and I have no faith that people will not to attempt to gain access to it for their own monetary gain.

As I said, it would take quite a scientific genius to tamper with the data in such a way to point the finger at the wrong suspect without the tampering being immediately obvious, so that scenario is not a major concern. But some insurance company or big company buying stolen genetic data and using that info to make insurance or employment decisions? That I can see.

By all means, DNA test the suspects in a criminal enquiry and keep the DNA record of those found guilty after the expert testimony of the ESR scientists (I'm of the once found guilty of certain crimes, you've lost the right to freedom and anonymity anyway) but the records of all other suspects should be instantly and securely destroyed, not left lying around on a server somewhere to bite the poor bastard in the arse a few years later when they apply for health/life insurance or a job.