Drinking age / driving accident statistics

[Deviant Esq]

just more of the same bullshit yar get what you vote for

You don't always get what you vote for. I should point out that 38% of us voted for the National party and didn't get a bean. I didn't vote for any of this shiznizzle, it was presented to the select committee and passed a government vote, so it got made legislation. Anyone recall voting on the matter? Hmm?

I saw a very similar article in the Christchurch Press either yesterday or a couple of days ago, no doubt based on the same report.

Once again, it's not New Zealand research.

Actually, the article I read presenting the same argument said it was done by an American firm. Now, we all argue whether or not the yanks present anything of value most of the time (H.D? ), but really, if you read the report properly and have a logical think about it, the conclusion is actually pretty accurate. So before you bash the report saying "Bah! Drinking age has nothing to do with it..", look at the evidence with an open mind, then form an opinion. I see the retard youths stumbling around drunk, acting like total morons, tagging, vandalising and generally making themselves a pain in the rear... and you disagree with raising the drinking age?

Have a think about it.

[Swoop]

(not to mention the pressure from the alcohol industry and it's money).

That was an interesting point. On the TV3 news there was a comment from the "hospitality association" commenting on the vehicles... like THEY are the cause of the problem...
NOT the nut behind the wheel that has just got tanked up at their establishment, or bought product at their wholesalers (sp?) outlet...

[Grahameeboy]

Raise the driving age to 17.....most kids start drinking around 15 (I did) so it seems stupid to allow them to drive from this age when they want to experience alcohol and driving which is a bad mix.......at 17 they may hopefully have got things out of their system (not all granted) and take less chances when driving.
Yep you could raise the drinking age, however, this does not stop 15 year olds getting hold of alcohol...older brother, mate comes in handy here eh
The probem is drink and driving between 15 - 17 so the answer surely is to take away the 'driving' bit......

[Ixion]

I wonder how valid the numbers are though. They use the phrase "linked to" which is pretty vague.

So often crashes don't have a single causative component.

Car A (driver completely sober) goes through a badly placed give way sign and is hit by car B which skids and fails to stop in time . A has just finished a 12 hour shift, is tired, and stressed. The light is bad and it's raining. Car B is a young driver who has had a drink (but not over the limit). He is inexperienced, and travelling over the speed limit, and much too fast for the conditions. Two of his tyres are bald .

Now. What caused that crash?

Carelessness ?
Driver fatigue?
Bad conditions ?
Bad road design ?
Inexperience ?
Alcohol ?
Speeding ?
Defective vehicle ?

All the above ?

And would the result have been the same if B had been a teetotaller ? Years ago, I doubt the "well under limit" alcohol would have figured as a cause in the accident report. It would have been driver carelessness (A) and speed and defective vehicle (B) . Now, with all the emphasis on alcohol, I'm sure that crash would go into the "alcohol linked" statistics.

One can make anything one wishes to out of statistics.

[Deviant Esq]

The problem is very much the "filter down" effect of the drinking age being at 18. There are plenty that are going to buy alcohol for others, so 15 - 17 have pretty easy access to the stuff.. and as the report said, the amount of 10 - 14 year olds admitted with alcohol poisoning has trebled since 1999. Can't imagine that's just bad parenting eh?

I say, a little of column a, a little of column b. I'm not so sure about the driving thing, I'll take that on a case - by - case. I started driving when I was 15 but I was never a loon about it or drove a fast car - I had a 1982 Civic station wagon. Good first car, cheap, gutless, practical, easy to drive. I wasn't an accident waiting to happen... but no doubt there are others that are / were, especially armed with alcohol and feeling bulletproof.

[ManDownUnder]

WOW - who ever thought that lowering the drinking age would result in younger people getting drunk and driving.

It's like a bolt from the blue...

Raise the age of responsibility (voting, being an adult, going to war, drinking... etc) to a point where the frontal lobes and hormone levels have settled down... somewhere around 35...

[Grahameeboy]

The problem is very much the "filter down" effect of the drinking age being at 18. There are plenty that are going to buy alcohol for others, so 15 - 17 have pretty easy access to the stuff.. and as the report said, the amount of 10 - 14 year olds admitted with alcohol poisoning has trebled since 1999. Can't imagine that's just bad parenting eh?

I say, a little of column a, a little of column b. I'm not so sure about the driving thing, I'll take that on a case - by - case. I started driving when I was 15 but I was never a loon about it or drove a fast car - I had a 1982 Civic station wagon. Good first car, cheap, gutless, practical, easy to drive. I wasn't an accident waiting to happen... but no doubt there are others that are / were, especially armed with alcohol and feeling bulletproof.

It is so easy to buy a fast import these days which may not help....what are the chances of restricting car drivers to a engine cc limit I wonder.....I mean the Govt keep telling us "The Faster you go the bigger the mess" yet they still allow a 16 year old to drive a Skyline etc and they restrict newbie bikers......we are a minority in this country and how often do you hear about young bikers hooning it, drinking and crashing etc....our survey said??

[Lou Girardin]

Can't agree with you here, Lou. How do you tell an 18 year old that for all practical purposes you're an adult...... "you can vote, get conscripted, be treated as an adult by the legal system but you can't buy alcohol!!"

I'll retract my post. I read the article again and it was NZ research.
As for the drinking age - tough shit, we did it once. They've proved they can't handle drink so they can do without.
Buy it illegally like we did.

[madboy]

The problem with problems (and statistics) is that you can find a cause or solution to everything, but that won't work in all or even most circumstances. A bit like Ixion's example, there's always multiple reasons why crashes happen.

The boyracers in some ways get a bum rap for their "souped up" cars having prangs. In most cases the really souped up ones aren't the ones crashing. The amount of news footage I see of some old piece of crap with a shiney exhaust tip being pulled out of a ditch/tree/truck/lamppost... it may have been full of pissed underage boys/girls doing stupid shit with or around the boyracer community, but it's not a souped up car.

With that said, I'm pretty confident if I'd been driving a 400hp WRX at 16 and not a 80hp Honda Civic I think I'd be dead. But then statistically I've been dead for the last 12 years anyway.

Ultimately, stupid kids playing with dangerous things will result in bad things happening. How do you legislate against stupidity?

Personally, I'm not worried about the driving age. Nor the drinking age. What I am worried about is the lack of qualification needed to engage in either. Both are lethal things if not used correctly. Kids do dumb shit, they need to be taught better. Education not enforcement.

[Deviant Esq]

Ultimately, stupid kids playing with dangerous things will result in bad things happening. How do you legislate against stupidity?

Personally, I'm not worried about the driving age. Nor the drinking age. What I am worried about is the lack of qualification needed to engage in either. Both are lethal things if not used correctly. Kids do dumb shit, they need to be taught better. Education not enforcement.

Amen to that. Except the "not enforcement" part. A lot of how they learn comes from being severely told off for being a complete fucktard. They could use some more discipline, and know that if they do something against the law, they're gonna be feeling it in the arse from some big guy called Raymond down at the local (behind) bars.

[Lou Girardin]

Does no-one think that playing your Playstation driving games doesn't affect attitudes to the real thing?
If the Yank military can use them for training they obviously have an influence.
We've even heard it on this forum, people referring to driving the Nurburgring on PS as if it were the real thing. The last thing you want is some pissed 18 year old thinking he can crash and have 3 lives left.

[TwoSeven]

lets pretend you're 15 again, would your opinion be the same?

yip. Never had a need to drive when I was a kid. Bus/walking/bike was pretty good. Only got me license because everyone else did.

[madboy]

Amen to that. Except the "not enforcement" part. A lot of how they learn comes from being severely told off for being a complete fucktard. They could use some more discipline, and know that if they do something against the law, they're gonna be feeling it in the arse from some big guy called Raymond down at the local (behind) bars.

Some more discipline, yeah. But from their parents and role models. Not from the cops. There ain't too many kids these days that respect or fear cops. Small towns maybe, but not in the big cities. Constable A can bleat his heart out to 14yo Tipene from Otara, but he's gonna get a "f** you" not a "thank you" in return. Constable B in Motueka might kick 14yo David up the arse, chuck him in the back of the patrol car and take him back home to his Dad, who plays rugby with Constable B... meantime David's packing himself cos he knows Dad ain't gonna be too happy about it... whole different ballgame.

[Jeremy]

In other news the decreasing number of pirates has increased the global world temperature.

You can of course just solve the problem in one go. And impose that you cannot drive after a quarter of a standard drink. Problem dissapears very quickly for everyone. And you'd expect a decrease in the number of crashes amongst ALL ages groups.

Anyway it's a useless report anyway. As there wasn't any mention of the level of skill of the drivers [hard to calculate, but at least you could do something that compares the average number of km they drive a week to the accident rate]. And those percentages are missing important information such as the REAL figures as well. 50% is really a worthless figure if we're only talking about an increase from 1000 to 1010 and it's in comparision to the increase for all age brackets.

[oldrider]

I must admit I was surprised at the response to earlier poles on this forum on the drinking age.
I quite expected to see majority support for the lower age limit.
I think it was overwhelmingly in support of raising it again.
Personally I am in support of the lower age limit and I think only a small percentage of young people spoil things for the rest.
Supporting evidence and media drivel repeated and repeated until a lie becomes a fact form most of the arguments against the lower age. IMHO.
Young people of today are our tomorrow and too much focus is placed on the minority of fuckwits that are in the slow learner bracket just because it sells news papers or makes TV news items.
I think that dangerous journalism is more destructive than dangerous anything else you like to mention. If I had my way a journalist caught and convicted of malicious untruthfulness would be made to eat their own word processor whole.
There are too many fucking rules about everything in this country. Young people are OK by me, sure they are going to make a few mistakes but they will learn from them sooner or later.
I was a complete idiot as a young person I think the majority of kids of today are bloody fantastic so why focus on the fuckwits all the time.
We should be encouraging the good ones. Cheers John.