Why are licence tests available in Maori?

**bondagebunny** · 11th January 2006, 18:29

Originally Posted by Monsterbishi

Actually, I'd place the quality of American education higher than our own, the literary level of New Zealanders has plummeted over the last decade and then some, with many adults basic reading, spelling and grammar skills at a level that can only be regarded as juvenile.

And this doesn't just limit itself to lower income situations, for those of us in office/administration positions, think about how often you receive emails, etc with multiple spelling mistakes.

As for multi-lingual education in Schools, it should be the choice of the parents as to whether their Children attend language classes, on a elective basis. For those who chose not to, they can opt for another class, ie Music, History, Math, etc.

in placing USA education above us - Yes NZ standards are the pits, but the yanks are no better - Many universities there now run remedial reading writing classes for college students and they have one year to shape up or they are shipped out. So they are as bad - BUT they are doing something about it . We however are not.

**Phurrball** · 11th January 2006, 18:50

Originally Posted by hXc

There is no benefit learning as it will not help us in any way. No where else in the world speaks Maori and no where else ever will. They are a minority population so I don't see the point. I learn French, I speak a little German, can greet in quite a few languages but refuse to ever speak a word of Maori unless it's a place name - Which I will pronounce how I want to. Taupo (pronounced T-our-po), Maori (M-our-ey) etc etc.

You clearly see some point in learning other languages - why the antipathy towards Te Reo in particular - seems to miss the point when it comes to the big-picture utility of learning other languages per se? Would you pronounce German or French place names however it takes your fancy on a particular day? I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you were trying that wee trick on in France

Originally Posted by hXc

I am sick of this bullshit PC NZ we are developing into. If your child is out of line - smack them, if you think someone is racist/sexist - get over it 'cause it's their choice! I don't care about this PC crap and I refuse to be PC at all times. What ever happened to free choice and ignoring something you don't like.

Someone's signature here is "I don't like Political Correctness, can we ban it?" I'm with ya there buddy. *snip*[/QUOTE]

Would you care to explain exactly what the much-maligned 'Political Correctness' actually is in its totality? It seems foolish to label distinct and often disconnected sociolinguistic features with one label. I have no problem with people disliking specific things, or a definable subset of things, but the ill-defined PC bogeyman panic of so many is just as bad as what you accuse the so-called PC lobby of. Perhaps PC is just a convenient label for the cultural paradigm shift going on all around us...

Then, if we had it your way I'm sure you'd not mind being on the receiving end of racial or sexual taunts 'cause it was the choice of the majority present. Oh, hang on, that's only OK when you're in the majority eh.

**Waylander** · 11th January 2006, 19:03

Originally Posted by Monsterbishi

Actually, I'd place the quality of American education higher than our own....

You know that was just aimed as an insult at me right? I doubt he meant it to start any sort of discusion.

And Bondagebunny, the reason that some universities run remedial reading is for students who dropped out of middle/highschool for some reason or another (they kicked me out, thought I was a danger to other students or some such....), or thier parrents couldn't afford it, then later in life decide they want to go back and start over.

**yungatart** · 11th January 2006, 19:08

Believe me, Phurrball, there are many areas in this country where white NZers are racially taunted by their early settler bros. Funny thing is, it only happens when they are outnumbered 10 to 1. There are many racists here-and they aren't all white!

**hXc** · 11th January 2006, 19:16

Originally Posted by Phurrball

You clearly see some point in learning other languages - why the antipathy towards Te Reo in particular - seems to miss the point when it comes to the big-picture utility of learning other languages per se? Would you pronounce German or French place names however it takes your fancy on a particular day? I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you were trying that wee trick on in France

Well...Maori is no use to me at all. I don't need to learn it and I have no desire to learn it. It won't benefit me in anyway at all. The majority of Europeans in New Zealand on holiday or just moved here will at least try to speak English and Maori properly. The majority of Maori's have no intention of trying to speak English properly so why should I speak Maori properly.

Originally Posted by Phurrball

Would you care to explain exactly what the much-maligned 'Political Correctness' actually is in its totality? It seems foolish to label distinct and often disconnected sociolinguistic features with one label. I have no problem with people disliking specific things, or a definable subset of things, but the ill-defined PC bogeyman panic of so many is just as bad as what you accuse the so-called PC lobby of. Perhaps PC is just a convenient label for the cultural paradigm shift going on all around us...

Political correctness to me: A trend that wants to make everything fair, equal and just to all by supressing thought, speech and practice in order to acheive that goal. Also an avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or insult people who are "socially disadvantaged" or "discriminated against."

Yes I stole them from google but they say exactly what I want to say, in a short, straight to the point, form.

Originally Posted by Phurrball

Then, if we had it your way I'm sure you'd not mind being on the receiving end of racial or sexual taunts 'cause it was the choice of the majority present. Oh, hang on, that's only OK when you're in the majority eh.

Personally, if someone tells me I'm a "honki" or "white-trash" then I don't give a fuck. I'll let them think that. I probably think that they're "black scum", "dumb niggers" or "fucking black c**ts" so it evens it all out.

And I don't have "a way" as you call it. I just don't like this PC bullshit society that we are turning into, much like a lot of other people in this nation.

**Phurrball** · 11th January 2006, 19:43

Originally Posted by hXc

Well...Maori is no use to me at all. I don't need to learn it and I have no desire to learn it. It won't benefit me in anyway at all. The majority of Europeans in New Zealand on holiday or just moved here will at least try to speak English and Maori properly. The majority of Maori's have no intention of trying to speak English properly so why should I speak Maori properly.

Why take pride in doing something incorrectly? Read my big rant earlier for the benefits of learning a language per se, yep, even Te Reo.

Originally Posted by hXc

Political correctness to me: A trend that wants to make everything fair, equal and just to all by supressing thought, speech and practice in order to acheive that goal. Also an avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or insult people who are "socially disadvantaged" or "discriminated against."

Yes I stole them from google but they say exactly what I want to say, in a short, straight to the point, form.

And fairness, equality, and justice are bad why? I would change 'supress' to 'change' personally. No one can supress what another thinks. We can change what is acceptable in society. Drink driving say. By changing norms we effect change for the better. I still think those who suggest 'PC' as a single, cohesive concept are advocating an ill-conceived position.

BTW - don't think that I think every application of so-called 'PC' is good. Some patently aren't. How do you know how the changes being effected at present will be viewed in 50-100 years time? Will it be like women stirring to get the vote? Some, I daresay will be viewed in a positive light...

Gotta go...

**Scouse** · 11th January 2006, 19:57

Originally Posted by Phurrball

Not really. The bottom line is that you don't have to accept a state religion. Some things are state sanctioned and difficult to avoid. You can use alternatives - but it won't be easy. Of all the languages in the world we have two official languages. You can use others to your hearts content. No matter what you think - you can avoid neither Maori nor the English language in this country. You could try, but like using an alternative currency, it would be difficult.

WRT 'race' - there are probably no so-called 'pureblooded' anyone left anywhere. A language is a seperate and evolving entity that overlays human culture. The genetic status of a 'race' is no arbiter of the validity of a language. As people grow up with language they will learn its appropriate usage. (Think English strong verbs - "I drawed a picture" We grow out of inappropriate usage)

Language can be viewed as like biodiversity. Most would agree that forms of life evolved/were created [strike out as appropriate] in a specific location to fill a niche. Likewise with language in a cultural sense. Most would probably further agree that preservation of biodiversity is a laudable aim. I suggest that it should be likewise with language. There are many endangered languages in the world today. If utility was the only factor in deciding whether preserving an endangered plant/animal was worthwhile, we'd live in a pretty sorry world today.

As language overlays cultures and places, it should be viewed in a broader sense. Imagine if you will that English has come to this beautiful land in some senses like mammals have. Neither belong. (I appreciate this analogy is OTT, but bear with me...) English has supplanted the local Reo in the same way that mammals have supplanted many of NZ's indigenous fauna.

Excuse me for being flowery and emotive, but te Reo Maori belongs with this land just like kiwi belong in our forests. They were here as a part of this place. It shouldn't be marginalised and end up going the way of the huia. It just belongs with this land - we as inhabitants need to acknowledge this regardless of our background. Maori language is a cultural part of this place, so there is a necessary connection to us all as inhabitants - bigger for some, smaller for others.

The utility of Maori may arguably be little in and of itself (I disagree personally - any language can do a job - just like any bike. They all have strengths and weaknesses). Utility is not the point. Maori is a pacific language, and follows similar rules to other related languages - as such, learning the language cannot be viewed in isolation. Think of the relationships between Spanish, Italian, Portugese, and other romance languages - learning Maori is like learning one of those WRT pacific languages - you learn about the mechanics of related languages by default. (See - it is useful in more than just isolation!)

Noone likes compulsion. But compulsion has its place. Imagine if we decided not to stop for red traffic signals...compulsion can achieve a 'big picture' aim over time better than piecemeal adoption can. I agree that the horse has bolted for those of us already through the school system. Any problems will be gone in a generation: Think how easily first generation kiwi kids pick up the accent and lingo at school - even if their parents speak a different language at home. Imagine how easily they'll pick up te Reo at school.

Us oldies will survive. English isn't going away as an official language. Nor will it for future generations I daresay. Our predominantly monolingusitic schooling system deosn't look good held up against many european models, or even somewhere like Singapore. Voluntary pickup is still there for us - we all manage to show an interest in what our kids learn at school - even if our proficiency in said subject pales in comparison to that of our child.

What's the threat in having more Maori language out there? Really? Please some one tell me? It's an officlal language of this land FFS! I appreciate the economic arguments WRT printing every official state document in 2 languages. The economic arguments are probably sound. You could argue almost anything through the narrow prism of economics while ignoring the bigger picture. Try this for size - motorcyclists are injured more severly in accidents and therefore they should pay a higher ACC levy as part of their vehicle licensing. Bang on in terms of economics - I'm sure that die-hard never-to-ride cagers think this is a great idea. I don't think I need to mention the big picture relating to this wee piece of economic logic in this company...remember that other economic arguments have a flipside you may not have thought of.

Righto. That'll do for that post. Phew.

Nice rant good sound argument I dont agree with all youve said but you deserve a Greeny so greeny awarded

**scumdog** · 12th January 2006, 07:28

Originally Posted by Phurrball

And fairness, equality, and justice are bad why? I would change 'supress' to 'change' personally. No one can supress what another thinks. We can change what is acceptable in society. Drink driving say. By changing norms we effect change for the better. I still think those who suggest 'PC' as a single, cohesive concept are advocating an ill-conceived position.
Gotta go...

P.C. in a lot of cases is the 'tail wagging the dog' - and that's what puts P.C. off-side with so many people.
FACT: Life is not fair, PARTICULARLY if you're a 'minority', that's the way it is and that's why the 'majority' are so 'anti' it, the minority are wanting things 'bent' to suit them and make things better for THEM at no or little benefit to the majority - or even to to the disadvantage of the majority.

I've got to deal with so much unreasonable P.C. in my job that it gets my back up almost straight away...grrr!!!

**sunhuntin** · 12th January 2006, 07:56

Originally Posted by marty

or like canada, where everything is printed out in about 6 different languages.

or south auckland.....

yep...the backside of all products in supermarkets have french on em. the front has english. motorway signs for off and on ramps have the french equivalent alongside, as do door signs etc. basic street signs, however, are english only. [at least where i was!] even the airplane safety instructions have english and then french done. the magazines supplied have articles printed twice...once for each language.

in six months...the only french i picked up was "sortie" which means "exit" [too long spent on motorways in toronto!!]

**scumdog** · 12th January 2006, 07:58

Originally Posted by sunhuntin

yep...the backside of all products in supermarkets have french on em. the front has english. motorway signs for off and on ramps have the french equivalent alongside, as do door signs etc. basic street signs, however, are english only. [at least where i was!] even the airplane safety instructions have english and then french done. the magazines supplied have articles printed twice...once for each language.

in six months...the only french i picked up was "sortie" which means "exit" [too long spent on motorways in toronto!!]

Quebec is even worse - lots of French language signs etc - but without the English equivalent, arrgh! scre-bleu!

**ManDownUnder** · 12th January 2006, 08:13

Originally Posted by sunhuntin

in six months...the only french i picked up was "sortie" which means "exit" [too long spent on motorways in toronto!!]

The French LOVE going to the UK and reading their signs...

"Soft Verge" is a classic...

Verge being slang for "penis" is French... (literally "rod" I think)

Ausfart in Germany (gas from drinking their Fosters I guess).

There are heaps of them.

**yungatart** · 12th January 2006, 09:02

I would hate to be a white middle class male in Godzone in 2000's-they are the biggest victims in our PC gone mad society.

**Ixion** · 12th January 2006, 09:17

I want them in elvish!

**hXc** · 12th January 2006, 09:19

Ixion - Did you remember to take your blue pill this morning? I hope you're not giving the nurses a hard time again

**ManDownUnder** · 12th January 2006, 09:19

Originally Posted by yungatart

I would hate to be a white middle class male in Godzone in 2000's-they are the biggest victims in our PC gone mad society.

We're only victims if we allow ourselves to be.

Sometimes it pays to do whats right instead of what's "wrong". I hate to say it but I agree with WINJA... (or is that "winja") on that point

Originally Posted by hXc

Ixion - Did you remember to take your blue pill this morning? I hope you're not giving the nurses a hard time again

That'll make him want Smurfish too... I think elvish will do (unless he's left the building)