WTF has howstuffworks.com been smoking???

**marty** · 30th January 2006, 10:07

Originally Posted by ducatilover

turning the back wheel to the left?

it's back OF the wheel to the left. read it again. i'm talking about the FRONT wheel.,

**Pixie** · 30th January 2006, 10:17

Originally Posted by Rayza

maybe its something to do with changing the centre of blance for the bike? because, and im not 100% sure of this, that you counter steer to enitiate a corner and when the bike starts leaning it the bars start turning in the right direction of the turn... eg turn left to go right and then the bars start turning right once leaned over. not 100% sure but I remember reading that somewere

When you steer to the left to initiate a right turn,the road applies a force at the tyres contact patch pushing the tyres left.This force tries to rotate the bike around it's centre of mass in an axial direction,and along with gravity,causes the bike to lean to the right.Once the angle of lean matches the angular acceleration dictated by the speed of the bike and the radius of the turn,the steering is bought round to right of center and the bike is in a balanced state of lean.
The process is reversed to bring the bike upright as it exits the turn.

Simple

**Ixion** · 30th January 2006, 10:21

Sideways, and front AND rear steering. It'll take the world by storm, folks. Just need to add an engine.

Press Releases: Inventor Patents Bicycle that Travels Sideways

Press Releases

Tired of the straight and narrow? Boston inventor granted US Patent # 6598892 for bicycle that travels sideways.

The bicycle is the worlds best loved invention. After 200 years a Boston man has invented a different bicycle. The Sideways Bike travels sideways and has front and rear wheel steering. The US Patent office granted US Patent # 6598892 on July 29 2003 to Michael Killian for the Sideways Bike.

**SVrunner** · 30th January 2006, 10:35

We all naturally counter steer we just don't know it.
Counter steer does make you turn faster & is a less effort when going around 90degree corners, by helping lean the bike over more quickly.
Have fun practicing.

**Pixie** · 30th January 2006, 10:44

Originally Posted by marty

increased rake actually decreases the effect of countersteering, as the effect of rake 'fall' is greater than that of gyroscopic precession. a square car tyre does suffer from precession, but it is fixed by the axle and drivetrain, and therefore overcomes the small precession force, and turns in the direction it is literally forced to go.

Rake,trail and gyroscopic precession play their parts in how a bike steers and handles from a "feel" point of view.
The process by which a bike corners is as discribed in post #47.
Tony Foale and Vic Willoughby,in their book "Motorcycle Chasis Design" described the effects of different geometries on steering.
They built a bike with adjustable Hossack front suspension,and tried rake angles from nearly zero to 27 degrees,and trail values of 2 to 4 inches
To cut a long story short,the steering at rake angles between 0 and 15 degreeswas light and stable,the bike could be ridden at 100 mph hands off with no wobbles.The trail had the main effect of altering wether the bike wanted to stand up at smaller angles of lean.

The gyroscopic forces affect mainly the speed the steering turns under the forces applied by the rider and the road and not so much the speed the bike can transition from turning to straight line travel.

**Pixie** · 30th January 2006, 10:50

Originally Posted by SVrunner

We all naturally counter steer we just don't know it.
Counter steer does make you turn faster & is a less effort when going around 90degree corners, by helping lean the bike over more quickly.
Have fun practicing.

Let's correct the terms we use.
Bikes can not be steered in any useful way,other than by counter steering.
Any other technique is initiating a wobble.
So let's refer to conscious counter steering and instinctive counter steering.

**HenryDorsetCase** · 30th January 2006, 13:57

Originally Posted by markauckland

Steering a motorcycle at low speeds is a straightforward process. The rider simply turns the handlebar in the direction he wishes to go. This only works at speeds below five miles an hour. If a motorcycle is traveling any faster, the rider must use a different kind of steering, known as counter-steering. This type of steering may seem counterintuitive. That's because motorcycle riders must push the handlebars to the left to make the vehicle turn right and vice versa.

Here's how it would work out on the street. Imagine that you're riding a motorcycle on the interstate. In front of you, blocking the right half of your lane, is a wreck or some other obstacle. If you're a novice rider, you might be tempted to push on the right side of the handlebar, thinking this will turn the bike to left. In reality, this will steer the bike to the right, directly into the obstacle. Instead, you should push on the left side of the handlebar, which directs the front wheel to the right but steers the vehicle to the left.

They are absolutely right. find a vacant carpark and try it. or ride for a while (gently) on the road and give it awhirl

**MSTRS:Me** · 30th January 2006, 14:28

This countersteering stuff is easy. In case it's not been said before - whenever you go on the lean, the bike is countersteering anyway without the rider having to 'do' anything. At speeds above not much more than walking pace, you will have to lean the bike to execute a turn. Countersteering is happening.
If you push forward/down on the inside handlebar, you will simply hurry up the process & magnify the effect.
Watch how some riders move from turn to turn with a smooth, flowing style - they are using the lean process. Then watch how some riders seem to 'snap' into a corner & back to upright - they are using the push (or pull) process.
Easy

**R6_kid:Me** · 30th January 2006, 16:09

Originally Posted by markauckland

how about a nice warm half empty glass of shut the fuck up

and i was out riding tonight and tried ye countersteering....i'm the idiot lol it just seemed random...and shit does it feel weird lol.... but when i get the hang of it ill be a better riding....just hope i don't fall off while learning lol grab some

people this will be interesting

what i meant to say was that although it will work on your bike, but due to the size/wieght differnce of you to your bike vs you to a real bike, it is just as easy to lean on your bike as it is to counter steer.

Countersteering on a 'real' bike is much more effective and has saved my ass many times.

**Korea** · 30th January 2006, 16:23

Cornering is 100% steering the bars, and by that I mean countersteering.
Push with your inside arm, relax your outside arm and see how quickly the bike is on its ear.
See Lee Parks' book "Total Control"
http://www.webbikeworld.com/books/total-control.htm
and
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=18611
for more on this...

**oldrider** · 30th January 2006, 17:22

Have a look at the thread that has a picture of Motu riding the gravel roads of Hamilton I think it was. Perfect ballance, angle and control. Have a look at his front wheel and you will see all you need to evidence counter steering. I think the man is near perfect on his bike and I have never seen him ride. Correction,I have never seen him but I bet I'm right. Cheers John.

**nudemetalz** · 30th January 2006, 21:20

What about "how to highside an RS-125 on the race-track" ?

Counter-steer right to lean into a left-hand sweeper,....keep the pressure on while machine leans further,....feel the knee-slider touch, and then keep the pressure just so, as the corner straightens out, start pouring on the power and let go of the pressure a little to bring the bike up,...bit more power,..OOPS back end is stepping out too far,...OOOHHH....shut the throttle,....back end stops completely and whole bike stands up straight immediately, ejects the rider off the seat and on the track.....he then slides along on his nice new John Kocinski Shoei,.....this goes for about 150 metres and he comes to a stop...gets up, notices his wrist is broken,...YELLS at the flag marshall at the corner who is looking the other way and is virtually asleep,...and as there's no response now wonders what to do as numerous other bikes coming out of the same sweeper are coming for him...he then decideds not to run but to stand there just in front of his fallen bike so as to be visible,...miraculously all of the bikes race past without hitting him...and then he runs off the track,..just as the flag marshall realises and waves his yellow flag..

oops I got off the subject a little...and my wrist still gives me grief 8 years later....

**Motu** · 30th January 2006, 22:06

These ones OldRider? Thank's for the compliments,I don't consider my self a good rider,but experianced,with a lot of different styles to choose from.I've always loved to slide.In the second photo I'm just stepping the rear out in a powerslide - once you are sliding the rear,it's all done with counter steering,riding the gyroscope.

Another thing to do with your bicycle wheel spinning on it's axle,after you have turned it right and felt the wheel tilt left - tilt the spinning wheel left,hey,now the wheel turns left.This is your ridgedly held rear wheel,your are tilting it left,it wants to turn left.In the picture on the beach I am countersteering a left turn,my spinning rear wheel is turning me left too.

**TwoSeven** · 31st January 2006, 21:52

Roughly speaking I figure it kind of works like this.

So, you want to turn left and push on the left bar. This turns the wheel to the right - called a negative slip angle (when the tire is pointing in the opposite direction you want to go). When this happens the bike falls over (but does not want to turn). The force on the bars required to initiate this falling over is a factor of castor angle and trail. The longer the trail, the more the wheel will try and align itself with the direction of travel and the harder you have to push to get it to turn.

After the bike falls over, the slip angle goes positive as the wheel swings back to the direction you want it to (into your turn). As soon as the slip angle becomes positive, the bike turns.

Why, because as the wheel is leaned over something called the cone effect takes place (push an icecream cone along the floor you'll find it goes round in a circle). For it to work, both ends of the imaginary cones have to be hitting the ground - if not the bike goes straight. The radius of the turn depends on the length of the imaginary line from the tire to the other end of the cone. If this is equal to the radius of the corner, you will go round the corner. If its not, you will either under or over steer.

There is also the rear wheel slip angle and two other cone angles on the bike - but they are not terribly important to know about for street riding

Thats how I understand it, so if I am wrong please feel free to correct me - I'm still working on some math for it.