Petition for removal of L plate and 70km/hr limit????

[Ixion]

If the bike was dinotuned , sealed , the hotting up you suggest would be hard to do with out braking the seal.

What if the bike breaks and needs fixing ?

[willy_01]

i agree there has to be laws conserning learners, but i feel that every one breaks them. as i learner id never travel at 70kms because A its a pain in the ass and B i reckon its dangerous. As for the 250cc restriction in my case its just stupid im a big fella, 120kgs (yes yes i ate all the pies) and a 250cc bike was gut less piece of crap on open roads, so ive now upgraded to a old vf1000, soo much safer, stops faster, handles better and can keep up with traffic better ect. As for the L plate yep i had one but it fell off about a 6 months ago, cant be bothered getting another one. I reckon the best way for new bikers to become old bikers ie not kill themselves is to have a good 'off' on a low powered bike, i had one and it works like an in built speed limiter. now i know my limits, on any bike. But there has to be laws i guess, just sucks that to enjoy my hobby im constantly running the risk of getting a ticket!

[Ivan]

Ok I have proved it The L PLATE is a target to most drivers they get all stupid and think they are hot shot and blast past you or undertake around a bridge for all things. The day I went for my car restricted I had the L PLATE on and everyone passed me and did dangerous shit got to Masterton and sat my restricted took the L PLATE off and drive home and knowone passed me whats going on here? Simple everyone trys to be cool

[Wolf]

Sure people could tune their engiens for more power. But ther would only be a few that were legal before and illegal after. And the same problem applies now to the 250cc rule. Apart from complete engine swaps there's quite a lot of bikes can be overbored or have different barrels fitted. That's totally impossible for anyone but an expert to tell without an engine strip down. F'instance, the barrel and piston of a TT350 yammy will fit (almost) straight on Ratty (a 250) . Prolly need the bigger carb, and maybe zorst, but no harder than most hot-ups.

Hondacmx450 had the head off a 250 when he was looking at my GSX and showed me exactly how thick the sleeve is (let's just say "bullet proof") and how far you need to bore it out to go up various sizes - plenty of room to bore the bastard out and the engine numbers would still match. Carbs are just a matter of re-jetting, I think. A couple of days off the road and a few hundred dollars and "Get fucked 250cc restriction!"

A co-worker of mine was into racing Vespas - he told me a lot of the mods you can do to a 2-stroke engine to increase power and speed: reworked exhaust system with carefully designed expansion chambers, mods to the bore and pistons etc. His Vespa was capable of insane, illegal speeds but looked like it couldn't make the open road limit. He used to have a radar detector on it and would throttle off when he got pinged. The cops would be looking at all the cars going past trying to work out who had been speeding but they never looked twice at the little Vespa buzzing along below the speed limit...

There are always ways around restrictions for those with the time, money and inclination to do so but the majority of the people are going to buy their bikes, go through the stages of their licences and either trade up or decide they love the bike as it is and keep it until they've polished off the third application of chrome.

And really, what value is the 250 restriction when you can buy an NSR or RGV that accelerate harder and go faster than some 650s? (the Aussie site will tell you precisely which 650s - they're on the approved list, the NSR and RGV aren't). There are bigger bikes on that "acceptable" list that, even if fully worked, still would not keep up with a stock RGV350 or NSR250 such as newbies can buy now.

If a total newb wants a dangerous vehicle that will most likely take him to the grave right now if he fails to respect it and exercise common sense, he currently has a few totally legal options. The RG250 Gamma comes stock standard with the sort of mods that that co-worker had done to his Vespa - it's a prime example of a "worked" 2-stroke.

Not all total newbs are young, dumb and full of cum, many I've met are quite responsible and I know those who have made up their own minds that they will start off on tamer 250s before racing out and buying an NSR. Frankly, I don't see why such intelligent people shouldn't be riding around on 400s and 650s of lowish power but greater comfort, stability and (to my mind) safety.

[willy_01]

"If a total newb wants a dangerous vehicle that will most likely take him to the grave right now if he fails to respect it and exercise common sense, he currently has a few totally legal options. The RG250 Gamma comes stock standard with the sort of mods that that co-worker had done to his Vespa - it's a prime example of a "worked" 2-stroke." QUOTE WOLF


haha, they arent THAT bad, my rg was my first motor bike =, was pretty sweet to learn on. i reckon it comes down heaps to the individual, more than the bike & its power. But your right some 250 will 'buck you off' a lot easier than bigger 'lazier' 4 stroke bikes

[magg]

isnt the limit 80kms/h?

[Hitcher]

isnt the limit 80kms/h?

And which "limit" is that? The L-plate limit is 70kmh.

There needs to be an amnesty system for people who don't know their Road Code to surrender their licences and become passengers...

[Wolf]

haha, they arent THAT bad, my rg was my first motor bike =, was pretty sweet to learn on. i reckon it comes down heaps to the individual, more than the bike & its power. But your right some 250 will 'buck you off' a lot easier than bigger 'lazier' 4 stroke bikes

A lot of smaller bikes I've noticed have pissy narrow tyres that slide in the dry let alone the wet, small wheels that are thrown out of whack mounting the layer of paint on the road markings let alone a pot hole and the brakes are an afterthought. The bigger-engined bikes tend to be better made - the tyres are wider and the wheels are more substantial and the brakes are better. They accelerate, decelerate and brake a lot more predictably and smoothly than some of the smaller bikes I've ridden. I'd rather see one of those larger bikes - like my old LS400 - in the hands of a newb than my old "safe" RX125.

On a dry road on the RX a panicked tread on the brakes had the arse end fish-tailing all over the road. On a dry road on the LS a solid hard braking stopped the bike quickly with no sideways movement at all. On damp grass on the LS deliberately slamming on the rear brake did not cause fish tailing - I had to deliberately thrown my weight to the side to get it to skid sideways under braking.

As to the power issues, the RG is not an untameable demon and is reputedly easy to control under most circumstances but it does have a powerband that could land an inexperienced rider fully "in it" under adverse conditions. If asked whether I'd rather see a person make a panicked twist of the throttle on an RG250 or my old LS400, I'd have to say the 400 - it does not have the sudden responsiveness of the RG, nor the power nor the top end. But we're not talking general riding here, we're talking an inexperienced person making a tactical blunder that I'd rather see them live to learn from.

I do not think RGs and NSRs are overly dangerous bikes or that LS650s are "safe", but I am mindful of some of my own panicked reactions (face it, riding a motorcycle is not intuitive, we train ourselves to do what we do and by and large we train ourselves so well it feels like we were born doing it) when learning and there were times when my little RX125 commuter was more dangerous than an LS650 or 400 would have been under similar circumstances with the same panicky rider. Other times, the greater power of the 400/650 might have been more potentially dangerous but OTOH I probably would not have felt inclined to be horsing around on a 400 or 650 and the situation may not have occured.

A horse power restriction would make more sense than a straight 250cc restriction even if they turned around and said "fuck it, we've been letting newbs ride RGVs and NSRs for years we might as well make that the cut-off point!" - because the increased number of models that a HP restriction would allow wld make for a better scope for new riders to find a bike that fits and suits them and that in itself is bound to increase safety.

Saying "it doesn't matter how tall you are, you can ride a Yamahozuki DRXL250 which has a nice tall frame for riders your size" just doesn't fucking cut it for me (not that that has ever been my problem, I'm a short-arse) because you've got to find the bugger and be able to afford it. The only bikes you can find in your price range are a nearly new GN125, an old GT250 and an old but still good LS650, the latter of which is the only bike you can sit on without bruising your knees on the underside of your helmet or hunching over like Quasimodo's less-fortunate brother. In Australia you could buy the LS650, here you may not.

[willy_01]

"A lot of smaller bikes I've noticed have pissy narrow tyres that slide in the dry let alone the wet, small wheels that are thrown out of whack mounting the layer of paint on the road markings let alone a pot hole and the brakes are an afterthought."

I Cant agree with you more! my rg's rear tire was only about 25mm wider than my push bikes
That caused most of my 'oh bugger' moments just down changing before roundabouts stop signs ect, would fish tail like a mofo if you tenced up.

Wolf has raised a great point maybe learners bikes need to have super wide tires? would this help?

Got to make you wonder are some of these laws causing more crashes than they are intending to avoid.

[Wolf]

"my rg's rear tire was only about 25mm wider than my push bikes

But on the plus side you could shave with it if you ran out of blades...

I've maintained for years that some of the smaller bikes should be left to experienced riders who're better able to cope with the machine's quirks and foibles.

There are a couple of bikes from my early days that I'd not ride now as an experienced rider because they were frankly shit and I have the option of far better machines. If I had to ride one (for whatever reason) I'd be cautious, mindful that in many ways it is inferior (safety-wise) to the more recent bikes I've ridden.

Would I let my kids have some of the bikes I learned on as "training bikes"? No fucking way, and I intend for my kids to have had ten years' experience riding bikes by the time they turn 15.

[muzz]

What if the bike breaks and needs fixing ?

Take it back to get retuned and sealed. Who pays : you do dont be so hard on the little beast Sorry I dont have all the answers but wolf is on track.

[Wolf]

Take it back to get retuned and sealed. Who pays : you do dont be so hard on the little beast Sorry I dont have all the answers but wolf is on track.

Thanks.

I think adding a dynotest and sealing the engine would add too much complexity to the system - and it'd have to be retroactive on all the eligible bikes currently on NZ roads which would mean all would have to be inspected and complianced, dyno'ed and sealed at someone's expense.

Currently, as has been pointed out, there is nothing stopping you from taking a 250cc two-stroke, boring it out to 400, doing a bit of port and polishing (except on the inlet that needs a bit of roughening to help the fuel and air mix better), higher compression pistons, getting custom pipes with expansion chambers tuned for the engine etc etc until your old dunger is the equivalent of an RGV400 and riding it on a learners licence - except the money and the inclination to do so.

I think our roads are fairly safe from such things, however. If there is one, the bugger is riding it so damned "sensibly" he might as well have saved his money or spent it on a course to shorten his learner period because it's not plastered all over the news: "Crappy old 250 seen exceeding 250kph in high-speed chase".

Personally I don't think people are on their learner or restricted licences long enough for them to worry about working the engines of their bikes to exceed the specs. If it's just a matter of swapping an engine and praying that no one looks too closely at the engine number, they might (if they had access to a cheap enough larger engine) but the expense of turning a low powered bike into something that would exceed the specs significantly is going to be a turn off - especially with the prospect of a full licence and the consequential ability to spend that money on a bigger, cooler bike not too far away.

The Aussie system seems to go by factory defaults - whether they got the data from the manufacturers or tested a representative sample of imported bikes I don't know, but they just say "LS650 is OK". Funnily enough, it's smaller, weaker sister, the LS400, was not on the list when I last looked. Possibly because they don't have that model over there.

[MSTRS:Me]

"A lot of smaller bikes I've noticed have pissy narrow tyres that slide in the dry let alone the wet, small wheels that are thrown out of whack mounting the layer of paint on the road markings let alone a pot hole and the brakes are an afterthought."

I Cant agree with you more! my rg's rear tire was only about 25mm wider than my push bikes
That caused most of my 'oh bugger' moments just down changing before roundabouts stop signs ect, would fish tail like a mofo if you tenced up.

Wolf has raised a great point maybe learners bikes need to have super wide tires? would this help?

Got to make you wonder are some of these laws causing more crashes than they are intending to avoid.

Nope - don't agree with that. Narrow tyres give better control on little, light bikes. The problem comes when those narrow tyres are of crap construction/materials, but cheap of course. Young Master Hoon-in-his-head thinks "I'll show those big bikes a thing or two" and then "OH SHIIIIIT".
Sorry guys - bigger is NOT better. Good compound tyres that fit the rim are the best, regardless of what you ride.

[Ixion]

Take it back to get retuned and sealed. Who pays : you do dont be so hard on the little beast Sorry I dont have all the answers but wolf is on track.

No way. I do all me own maintainence (well, most of it) No way is some bureaucunt gonna seal me out of me own egnine.

[Ixion]

He is right. I have lost track of how often I've said it.

On bikes smaller tyres give better handling and control than big ones. Yes I KNOW! It's not like that with cages! It's not a blurdy cage, OK!

Think about it. What is the primary objective of suspension design in a cage - to keep the wheels vertical and flat on the road. Right? Right ? And would that be a good thing on bikes ? No id wouldn't, would it? Would it ? Well, would it ? Bikes, that rely totally on their wheels NOT being flat and vertical ? Right?

So if the suspension objectives are totally opposed doesn't that suggest that maybe the tyres might need to follow a different paradigm too?

Too many newbies want to make their bikes work like cages cos they're still cagers at heart.