Those cheesecutter/wire median barriers

[scumdog]

Just so. Which highlights the futility of using yellow lines or any other than "Beware, hidden danger".

How can some bureaucrat say that this stretch of road is not long enough for my R1 , or Ferrari, to overtake this tractor doing 15kph?

The present mania for yellow lines everywhere has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the control freak mentality of the LTSA.

The reason for that is we have to tolerate lesser drivers (some from KB) and that's the penalty.

Now if they only made the drivers licence test really hard and the penalties for road danger driving (cutting blind corners etc) really harsh we could have an easier time.
But a Gov't that did that would be voted out straight away by those affected by such changes. (about 80% of the population)

[eliot-ness]

Just so. Which highlights the futility of using yellow lines or any other than "Beware, hidden danger".

How can some bureaucrat say that this stretch of road is not long enough for my R1 , or Ferrari, to overtake this tractor doing 15kph?

The present mania for yellow lines everywhere has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the control freak mentality of the LTSA.

I remember well the government in England deciding that they alone knew the best places to overtake. All roads had double yellows broken ony in places where they decreed it was safe to do so. This was made even sillier by restricting even further and allowing only one side at a time to overtake. ie. traffic moving south could overtake on one section of straight road, then on the next straight it was the turn of the north moving traffic. The problem was compounded by the fact that heavy vehicles, tankers etc. were restricted to 20mph so you can imagine what happened when, after chugging along for miles behind a tanker, it was your turn to overtake but you couldn't because of a couple of cars or trucks coming the other way and then found, on a clear stretch of road, when passing would be easy, it was the turn of the none existant traffic coming the other way. The system was heavily policed and hefty fines handed out to anyone silly enough to ignore the lines. The resulting chaos, huge traffic jams and major nose to tail accidents, forced a rethink and within 12 months the lines were scrubbed and returned to normal. A bloody expensive way of proving that beaurocrats are in the main, idiots, with little knowledge of real world issues

[XP@]

I remember well the government in England deciding that they alone knew the best places to overtake. All roads had double yellows broken ony in places where they decreed it was safe to do so..... .... The resulting chaos, huge traffic jams and major nose to tail accidents, forced a rethink and within 12 months the lines were scrubbed and returned to normal. A bloody expensive way of proving that beaurocrats are in the main, idiots, with little knowledge of real world issues

Bugger... what fails in the UK is usually considered the next best thing in NZ. (hidden speed cameras...)

[Brett]

Bugger... what fails in the UK is usually considered the next best thing in NZ.

That seems to be the case with many things mate, we try to do things that just dont work...as proven in other countries...NCEA being a prime example.

[SPman]

But a Gov't that did that would be voted out straight away by those affected by such changes. (about 80% of the population)

Only 80% !!!!

[cooneyr]

So, what do the pricks at Transit do? they put in TWO lines of cheesecutters, right along the very absolute edge of the right hand lane in each direction.

With that nice safety area smack in the middle between the barriers. Useless and unreachable (without being cut in half)

In one stroke totally elimiunating the saftey margin, not just for us but for cages too.

Barriers is fine IF they also allow a few metres of margin. This has been shown over and over again in overseas studies, but Transit are totally obdurate. They insist on putting their barriers righht on the lane edge. No idea why.

The reason they put them on the edge of the lane is beacuse they are desiged to break poles and deflect up to 3 meters sideways. They get their strength from acting like a ribbon with either end (ie next to the point of impact) "tied" to the ground.

Unfortunatly all engineering is a comparmise between cost and benefit. Better to save as many as can be afforded than not save any at all cause the ultilmate solution is to expensive and not carried out. Best solution would be to have wide (10+ meters) of clear zone (no poles, signs etc) on the outsides and about 15+ meters of clear zone on the middle. You gonna donate your house that is next to the highway for that purpose?

R

[Ixion]

The reason they put them on the edge of the lane is beacuse they are desiged to break poles and deflect up to 3 meters sideways. They get their strength from acting like a ribbon with either end (ie next to the point of impact) "tied" to the ground.

..

R

If that be so, then how do they justify their use where there is zero "dead ground" behind them? Eg on SH1 between Auckland and Hamilton, where the cheescutters are simply placed right on top of the central white line. No deflection room at all.

So, you're saying that if something hits that cheescutter, it's going to deflect 3 metres INTO THE FAST LANE ON THE OTHER SIDE?

In which case anything coming down that fast lane is going to be collected just as if the cheescutter wasn't there. So what purpose does it serve? (Other than cutting motorcyclists in half)

[cooneyr]

If that be so, then how do they justify their use where there is zero "dead ground" behind them? Eg on SH1 between Auckland and Hamilton, where the cheescutters are simply placed right on top of the central white line. No deflection room at all.

So, you're saying that if something hits that cheescutter, it's going to deflect 3 metres INTO THE FAST LANE ON THE OTHER SIDE?

In which case anything coming down that fast lane is going to be collected just as if the cheescutter wasn't there. So what purpose does it serve? (Other than cutting motorcyclists in half)

Yep. From my understanding (I'm a planning engineer not a design engineer) they should never be installed in that situation. Where there is no space for deflection then concrete median barriers similar to that on the Auckland Harbour Bridge (K rail barriers) but embeded into the ground should be installed. Down here in Chch they put in (or are planning to put in when we get some money) wide medians with the "cheese cutter" barriers on either side and hope like hell (seems reasonable to me) that there is not a crash on both sides at the same location at the same time. Not sure ot the exact width but around 2 to 3 m wide.

I wasnt overly clear last time but they are designed to deflect up to 3m. This is when a HCV hits at 70kph and 30 degrees so a car travelling at 100 kph that crashes at 5 to 10 degrees should not deflect the barrier anywhere near as much.

Check this linky out http://www.brifen.com/perfhist.htm There are some videos around of this test but dont know where. Also on the same site is the clearances/setbacks http://www.brifen.com/standbas.htm#design Just read a bit more and depending on post spacings etc the clearances/setbacks can be as little as 1.0m. Also note these are Ausi Standards which while we follow them alot we sometimes do things our way.

Still implies that one barrier on the centre line of the road with no seperation from the closest edge of the driving lane is not on. Just double check that there is no seperate between the closest edge of the driving lane where there is only one barrier on the center line. You may (or may not) be supprised.

R

P.S. dont shoot the messanger

[Lou Girardin]

They will install them whenever and whereever they need to be seen "to be doing something"
But putting them on the outside of bends, as they are doing, is just loading the dice too far against bikers.
Do they realise that's the direction we slide when we bin?

[sunhuntin]

Whomever gave the go-ahead for the placement of wire saftey barries deserves to be shot, Their job is not to make the road a more dangerous place.

Granted median barriers are required, Many such systems can be used just as effictivly without resorting to a system that creates a dangerous hazard for road users ( I wouldn't put a Barb-wire fence around my swimming pool for example, Sure it would work, but the kids would soon come to consider me an outright bastard )

My main concern though is the placement of barriers on the side of the road, removing all run off areas, making a survivable incident a garenteed death trap. I see the route from Wanganui to Turakina has already been mentioned, The latest move on the powers that be is to build a solid dirt embankment at the top of one of the hills, again instead of a good chance to scrub off speed and find a softer landing you are intsead faced with a sudden impact, death is likely, massive injuries are garenteed.

Perhaps if they didn't spend money on making the road a more dangerous place then they could have spent the money on more expensive median barriers and left the run off areas as they were. Having said that, with the billion dollar surplus and the billions generated from road users every year their is no excuse for what imo amounts to a criminal act.

And whats the dream about "just pull your head in and you'll be right", You don't need to be speeding to be in a situation where evasive action is required, apart from the obvios hazard of wandering cars has anyone here not had a front wheel blow out while going around a corner?

Even if it happens one single time in NZ (and it will happen)and someone dies not because of the initial incident but because of the placement of a "saftey barrier" then there should be no debate, heads should roll, the desicion maker should go to jail.

And just stay off the roads that have them?

Is it not bad enough that everything gets regulated to hell and back?, now people are willing to be manipulated off the public roads by an incompetent Transit NZ?

Have some backbone. If your for the idea of cheese-cutters on our roads then do the right thing, ride between em and share the risk that has been forced on all of us.

yep...that dirt wall is at the top [wangas side] of the hill that leads to whangahu valley. i have noticed though, it is far enough back to allow time to slam brakes on and lose enough speed to minimise the impact....if i was heading towards that, id likely lay it down and let the bike go. wouldnt like doing it, but better than me hitting first and the bike following.
also, not always possible to stay off the roads. you live in wangas, same as me. to get to palmy, we have to ride past two sections of cheese cutter plus the dirt wall. same with kapiti coast. first time i rode these areas, i was nervy as hell and stayed well away. but now, i see it coming, forget about it and then get a fright when i realise its gone.

ix....try riding along that road in the video at night. LOL. makes things interesting...specially with oncoming cars who refuse to dip their lights, meaning you are almost literally blind.
as i said, they have two stretches of them up here, plus the kapiti one...and they are all pointless.
yep, the kapiti road is 80k speed limit, and also a 10k stretch of no passing and also no stopping, which means i cant pull over to let those up my exhaust go past.
the two closest to me [between wangas and turakina] they are essentially right on the side of the road...leaving no room to drop speed or any other things one might try. one is heading, on the otherside of kaitoke, on the northbound side, and the other is the southbound side going into turakina. think both are uphills, but havent been that way for a while.
the kaitoke one...i nearly ran into the start of that one night trying to pull off to let cars go past...remembered it was there just in time. no reflectors what so ever...if i hadnt known it was there...woulda left a bit of a mess!

[cooneyr]

They will install them whenever and whereever they need to be seen "to be doing something"
But putting them on the outside of bends, as they are doing, is just loading the dice too far against bikers.
Do they realise that's the direction we slide when we bin?

I think thats the point - to the outside of the bend is the direction that everybody slides. Normaly they are put on the outside of bends to stop you falling down the cliff/bank etc.

Given that NZ is a currently mostly reactive when it comes to road safety i.e. generally put up barriers, make things safer etc after someone has had crash. So if well all didnt bin (including cagers) there would be no need for and hence no barriers.

Yes there may be other types of bariers that are safer for motorcyclists but given reactive nature of improvements and the relative (compared to cages) lack of motorcycle crashs why would they even look at a motorcyclist friendly solution. I've been looking at crashes on and off for 5 years (from an engineering perspective) and never seen a motorcycle crash (I know they are there though). Basically we need to have more motorcycle crashes if we want motorcyclist friendly (safety friendly) barriers/roading. Tends to suggest that you have to scarifice your bodies for your fellow/next generation biker if you want them to be safer.

The only other way is lobby groups (BRONZ etc) but there are just not enough bikers and hence leverage/voters to get things to happen. It all comes down to cost, "cheese cutters" provide the same benefits as armco when slightly more deflection is OK but for a cheaper price.

R

[Deano]

Do they realise that's the direction we slide when we bin?

But less injury costs if you don't survive. That would keep ACC happy wouldn't it ?

[Wolf]

But less injury costs if you don't survive. That would keep ACC happy wouldn't it ?

I understand that the gummint would also like the elderly to kick off nice and early and stop being a drain on the welfare state - I wonder what plans they have in that direction...

[Deano]

I understand that the gummint would also like the elderly to kick off nice and early and stop being a drain on the welfare state - I wonder what plans they have in that direction...

They are already onto it. Those hospital waiting lists aren't getting any shorter are they ?

Plus the cost of electricity - some elderly do not use heating (rather sit in a blanket shivering) cause they can't afford it.

Some of these people fought in wars for us and this is the thanks they get.

[Drum]

Cooneyr is right. These barriers are designed to deflect up to 3m upon being struck (the maxuimum deflection is also related to the post spacing and specified tension) . Where they are installed on central medians without the room to deflect, they are installed in contravention of Transits own design standards. And as Cooneyr rightly points out, this is done to save money, although the logic of spending less to create something that is completely useless is, of course, totally flawed.

Yes, they are installed on the outside of corners to stop errant vehicles leaving the road. No, this doesnt seem like a good idea from a motorcyclists perspective, BUT THESE BARRIERS HAVE NEVER BEEN TESTED ON MOTORBIKES. They are designed for cars and small trucks (i.e. Utes). Motorcyclists are not even considered or discussed when these design decisions are made, and therein lies the problem.