BMW in MotoGP...it's real!

[Burger]

ABS will activate, and you'll ride all the way into his lovely contraption if the required stopping distance is not long enough.

I for one would rather lock the front or back wheel and put it down.

Maybe I'll still slam into it.
Maybe I won't.

But on a bike with ABS?
YOU WILL.

Hang on. Perhaps you can tell me how ABS works then. This is my understanding of ABS:

--
If the wheel starts to loose grip, the ABS computer will pulse the brakes a hundred times a second or so until the tyre regains it's grip on the road surface.

The way it works is a notched disc inside the rotor is looked at all the time by a very sensitive instrument (photometer?). Both front and rear tyre speeds are compared and if found to be different (meaning a tyre is slipping) then the ABS computer will try and regain grip as fast as possible (all the while slowing you down as fast as possible, without tipping you off).--

What I don't understand is how this can be unsafe on any surface except snow, where you want the wheel to lock and find the road surface again. I don't understand how having the front wheel lock and slip gives you any kind of control over your braking distance ?

[Titanium]

Yeah mate, riding Beemers will put you to sleep every time.

Yup like a baby... while waiting for you to turn up........ on your ride....

[Finn]

Actually come to think of it, we should all show a little respect for BMW. If they can build a naturally aspirated 3.2L inline 6 that develops 343bhp (E46 M3), imagine what they could do to their motorcycle engines if they tried. I think BMW motorcycles are going through some major changes. Look what's happended in just the last few years. Some fantastic designs. It'll just take time... the German way.

[Titanium]

Hang on. Perhaps you can tell me how ABS works then. This is my understanding of ABS:

--
If the wheel starts to loose grip, the ABS computer will pulse the brakes a hundred times a second or so until the tyre regains it's grip on the road surface.

The way it works is a notched disc inside the rotor is looked at all the time by a very sensitive instrument (photometer?). Both front and rear tyre speeds are compared and if found to be different (meaning a tyre is slipping) then the ABS computer will try and regain grip as fast as possible (all the while slowing you down as fast as possible, without tipping you off).--

What I don't understand is how this can be unsafe on any surface except snow, where you want the wheel to lock and find the road surface again. I don't understand how having the front wheel lock and slip gives you any kind of control over your braking distance ?

Yeah that is it......in a nut shell.

It is not perfect..... but I guess it might swing the odds in your favour....

What it does do is to take up the slack of the rider who will have a natural instinct to slam on all the brakes, lock up the wheels and lose all control.

I can pull the front lever to the handle bars (not really) and the bike just stops, the K1200S has the BEST stopping distance of any super sports tourer.

One of the MotoGp / SBK teams is running traction control? ..... crasher fromwayback would be pretty dark on that innovation as well.

[Titanium]

Actually come to think of it, we should all show a little respect for BMW. If they can build a naturally aspirated 3.2L inline 6 that develops 343bhp (E46 M3), imagine what they could do to their motorcycle engines if they tried. I think BMW motorcycles are going through some major changes. Look what's happended in just the last few years. Some fantastic designs. It'll just take time... the German way.

Then they make the M3 CSL at 400 bhp? and 3.3 ltrs?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hang on. Perhaps you can tell me how ABS works then. This is my understanding of ABS:

--
If the wheel starts to loose grip, the ABS computer will pulse the brakes a hundred times a second or so until the tyre regains it's grip on the road surface.

What I don't understand is how this can be unsafe on any surface except snow, where you want the wheel to lock and find the road surface again. I don't understand how having the front wheel lock and slip gives you any kind of control over your braking distance ?

You're right, and your understanding of the way it works is good.
BUT....if you've got an immovable object in your path, lets say 100m away, and you need (with or without ABS) 150m to stop safely.....I'd rather lock the front wheel, put it down, and take my chances that I may (fingers crossed if they've not been bent backwards in the biff!) not actually make contact with said object.

With ABS, because you're still nice and upright, you're gonna ride straight into it.

[Ixion]

ABS very good thing. Best thing is not yet mentioned. You can turn (lean) and brake at the same time. In theory, possible without ABS, but in reality no mere mortal could cope with sorting out the conflicting forces in a true emergency situation. ABS sorts out the "only so much traction available, do you use it for sideways or for forward" conundrum.

So you can , if you must, brake as hard as a brakey thing , and at the same time heel the bike hard over, all without thinking about it, leaving your brain free to sort out an escape route.

Very good thing. One of the very few modern thingy wozzits I approve of.

[Finn]

Then they make the M3 CSL at 400 bhp? and 3.3 ltrs?

Oh yeah, I forgot about the CSL. I've owned 2 M3's and they are fantastic. I had the first of the E46 models but it was a lemon. That new sequencial (sp) diff melted 3 times and I went through 2 clutches. All this in 6 months. BMW NZ were useless. All I wanted was a replacement car. The NZ Service Manager said I was the only person in NZ having that problem. I spoke to 3 other owners who had similar problems and in the US, BMW had a recall. I provided them with all this info and they got nasty. Lucky for me I financed it through BMW Finance so one day I threw the keys at the service manager and caught a taxi home. I also spoke to Geoff Fletcher the MD of BMW NZ and he was a complete cunt. I told him to fuck off and that an old cunt like him should retire. I then met him at some wanky fund raising dinner and introduced myself. He went pale when I reminded him he was a useless cunt. Nice car though.

[Titanium]

You're right, and your understanding of the way it works is good.
BUT....if you've got an immovable object in your path, lets say 100m away, and you need (with or without ABS) 150m to stop safely.....I'd rather lock the front wheel, put it down, and take my chances that I may (fingers crossed if they've not been bent backwards in the biff!) not actually make contact with said object.

With ABS, because you're still nice and upright, you're gonna ride straight into it.

Or shock horror maybe have a chance of going AROUND it..... always a chance you know ..... I'll let you take your chances sliding into it.....

Think back to when i got my licence 20 years ago..... when you got to stop..... use the lot......

"BMWK1200S 70mph to 0 mph - 48.87m" .... shit CFWB man you just slamed in to that tractor at 100 mtrs away and I pulled up 51.13 m short....... . Should have had ABS brakes, shame about your legs, hip, shoulder ..... fucked up scratched bike ....... .

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah that is it......in a nut shell.

It is not perfect..... but I guess it might swing the odds in your favour....

What it does do is to take up the slack of the rider who will have a natural instinct to slam on all the brakes, lock up the wheels and lose all control.

I can pull the front lever to the handle bars (not really) and the bike just stops, the K1200S has the BEST stopping distance of any super sports tourer.

One of the MotoGp / SBK teams is running traction control? ..... crasher fromwayback would be pretty dark on that innovation as well.

Well, we're kinda on the same, but different pages here now!
If you read what I say about ABS, you'll see why I don't like it.
Traction control when referring to acceleration is a totally different kettle of sardines.
Race bikes are trying to limit the chances of 'high sides' due to outta control slides. They want the maximum amount of forward thrust, but still realize that a certain amount of wheelspin is needed.
If you equate ABS to 'traction control' whilst accelerating, you'd have no wheelspin, and no way to 'square off' a corner.

effective 'traction control' is dropping lap times.
Do you think if ABS did likewise they'd be using it?

Yeah, they would.

Simply put, In my not so humble opinion, there comes a time in every 'road riding' motorcyclists time, that it's better to lock up a wheel and put it down, than it is to ride straight into something solid cause your ABS wouldn't let you do it.

[Ixion]

However, the issues you describe are simply those that distinguish riding on a race track from riding on a public road.

Whether ABS, traction control or whatever drops lap times or vice versa is simply totally irrelevant to road riding. The public road is not a race track, and sensible people are not riding on it trying to go as fast as possible.

You might as well condemn having indicators or brake lights on bikes because race bikes do not have them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

"BMWK1200S 70mph to 0 mph - 48.87m" .... shit CFWB man you just slamed in to that tractor at 100 mtrs away and I pulled up 51.13 m short....... . Should have had ABS brakes, shame about your legs, hip, shoulder ..... fucked up scratched bike ....... .

Gee, you're right mate.
Fact is, you can stop harder on a non ABS equipped bike if you know what you're doing.
And if you don't want to see what I'm saying because you need to justify your over priced ABS equipped bike, that's cool too.

You'd just better hope that tractor's not 30 m away then.

[Titanium]

Gee, you're right mate.
Fact is, you can stop harder on a non ABS equipped bike if you know what you're doing.
And if you don't want to see what I'm saying because you need to justify your over priced ABS equipped bike, that's cool too.

You'd just better hope that tractor's not 30 m away then.

Yeah, because we would be calling a hearse to carry you home in cause you were just a big SPLAT. 30 m is prolly a decent response time...... to go oh fuck a tractor ....BANG.

Problem not enough riders know how to stop properly ...... not and ABS non ABS argument.

[Crasherfromwayback]

[QUOTE=Ixion]However, the issues you describe are simply those that distinguish riding on a race track from riding on a public road.

Whether ABS, traction control or whatever drops lap times or vice versa is simply totally irrelevant to road riding. The public road is not a race track, and sensible people are not riding on it trying to go as fast as possible.

/QUOTE]
I agree with you Ixion, but the original post WAS BMW in Moto GP.
And, my theoretical 'emergency situation' is only my view.

[Titanium]

so have we decided that BMW is in Moto GP then?

Guess we see in 2008.