Why not BRONZ?

[BeakerRAT]

I want to see action, I want to be heard, I demand bikers our interests, suggestions and opinions are considered and taken seriously, and, I am prepared to be involved with what ever to make that happen.
I do not however wish to see this fit in with the usual Jo Public response being a whole swag of disjointed random and individual submissions that is absolutely too easy for the government to dismiss.

Yes, therein lies the problem with most lobby type groups. Unless you all have the same agenda, or are willing to bend a little on your individual views - it all falls down. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a personal snipe at you Ozzie or am I saying that BRONZ or similar type groups are wrong in what they are trying to achieve, this is meant in a broader sense. For my 2c worth, I think the only way you may form some type of cohesive group that might gain traction is to keep it simple (the KISS approach). One or two clearly defined issues and objectives.

Good on you for having a go and being passionate in what you believe in.

[The Stranger:Me]

Yes, therein lies the problem with most lobby type groups. Unless you all have the same agenda, or are willing to bend a little on your individual views - it all falls down.

But with all due respect, you have the oppertunity to turn up and set the BRONZ agenda.

[BeakerRAT]

But with all due respect, you have the oppertunity to turn up and set the BRONZ agenda.

True, and I have gone along to a BRONZ meeting to see what it is all about. I have no issue with BRONZ or what they are trying to achieve. My point is that with the current issues 'safe as workshops', it needs to be focussed into one broader issue that everyone can get behind. I've read lots of comments both on this forum and the 'safe as' website, most take on individual views and concerns and carry little weight as a result. Perhaps BRONZ or the like can come up with a common statement or defined issue to combat what the MoT are trying to implement. That way a greater number of people can get behind it and rally a common cause.

And before you say or ask what have I done to help.... I've made a few submissions in an attempt to curb there efforts. Along the lines of undermining their process, rather than attacking every issue they have raised, i.e speed, youth and alcohol or any other issue I may have as an individual.

Clear leadership is required, perhaps BRONZ can display this, and they are probably best equipped to do so.

[James Deuce]

Clear leadership is required, perhaps BRONZ can display this, and they are probably best equipped to do so.

In Auckland and Otago.

[Ozzie]

Clear leadership is required, perhaps BRONZ can display this, and they are probably best equipped to do so.

My sentiments exactly!

Take what you will from my comments, but the sole reason for them is to try and drive a common front, get organised, get coherent, get noticed.

I don't think the approach to date is worthless, I think it is a first step. Let's embrace BRONZ, join up, get an action plan and put into place. If not BRONZ, then someone else. There is not the time to put a new kid on the block.

Join BRONZ, build alliances, get some action.

Ranting and raving, and (no offence) sulking over past mistakes of BRONZ does nothing to address this situation, and a fragmented approach achieves just as little.

So, put up, or shut up! Coarse I know, but going on about it here will do NOTHING!

[Skyryder]

I'm still a bit of an outsider on the BRONZ issue although I tend to go along with J2 general assesments. I am sure that BRONZ have some committed members who do their very best. But to me it seems that BRONZ lacks ability in stratergy and goals. I am referring in particular to the Bus Lane initives by some KB members in which I posted my support for the effort they were prepared to put in. Personaly I think one of the problems is the name: BRONZ. Bikers Rights etc. The name implies that we as bikers have rights over and above other road users and as such leads to a basic weakness when trying to deliver outcomes and goals to the biker fraternity. A case in point was the recent flurry of BRONZ activity over bus lanes. I don't want to get into the pros and cons of this but anyone who takes a sembalnce of notice on transport issues will be aware of the Government's committment to the improvment of the public transport system. No amount of logic, concerning safety, fuel economy or any other reason will change LTNZ's position. Any vehicle using bus lanes is seen as an impediment to the improovement of the nations transport system. Now noone's going to come out and say that but make no mistake that is the reasone why BRONZ will never win that particular battle. But bikers seem to think that they should be exempt...........and while this attitude remains in BRONZ...........they will be going nowhere.

BRONZ needs a national issue that includes 'all' road users and one that they can win.

Skyryder

[Fatjim]

I think the AA could be the best vehicle so to speak. This is because they represent an already very large slice of NZ. If they can be convinced of the MAIN issues, things like driver awareness and road conditions then they will undoubtably have the best chance of getting them changed.

The trouble with the approach of using a "hobbyist" group like Ulysses to present your views is that ultimately they can't be taken seriously, because they are not a serious group themselves.

[candor]

The AA gets some grants from LTNZ. Corrupted as an advocate!
I think a united group even of your own membership which is huge would be taken seriously. If you put together a bullet pointed plan of you priorities for constant repetition at all safeas workshops around trhe country - why not do a poll here with all possibilities to work out your top 5 or 10 say.

They are working by divide (into community area patches) and conquer. So organisation is necessary. You have the numbers to get heard if not listened to.

[candor]

Or another way - could do just as they suggest and "hold workshop of your own" based on (just based on theirs. Then feed it back to website just like they are. Only diff is yours would be on a Natonal scale. So you'd post up the dud questions 1 and 2 here and get (unmatched) answers, collate / organise.
Some work in it but theres a week or 2 to go before the consultation over.
I'm betting no-one is going to go out and run these things except for girl scouts so they'll be all over any content people bring back.

Also Woodman is just a low paid kidult as someone suggested. But - he is feeding back to the 2 top policy makers who are unsettled to say least and watching real close. I got an inside source. With a lot more likely comin on website next few weks we want to keep the posts full of meaty substance so newcomers don't miss main points (IMHO).

It's good having you all over there, am learning a lot from ya'

[The Stranger:Me]

No amount of logic, concerning safety, fuel economy or any other reason will change LTNZ's position. Any vehicle using bus lanes is seen as an impediment to the improovement of the nations transport system. Now noone's going to come out and say that but make no mistake that is the reasone why BRONZ will never win that particular battle. [/B]

Skyryder

Say what?

Sorry I can't see what you are saying here. Not arguing, just can't quite follow it.

[The Stranger:Me]

I think the AA could be the best vehicle so to speak.

Could be, but historically, even very recent history indicates otherwise.

Is a motorcycle an automobile?

[Skyryder]

Say what?

Sorry I can't see what you are saying here. Not arguing, just can't quite follow it.

There's been some comment on here about trying to get the LTNZ to allow bikes to use bus lanes. They have come up with a number of reasons as to why this will not take place. Some I posted in my thread. The bottom line is that the Government is commited to improving the Public Transport. What I am saying is the The LTNZ, no matter what arguement and logic is used, they will fall back on the Government's position. Any traffic in the bus lanes will act as an impediment to the improvement (timetables etc) of the Public Transport. This is a subjective argument and by it's nature is unlikely to be discussed openly by government officials: that is unless it is bought to their attention in which case it will in most likely be denied. They (LTNZ) will/ have used examples of, if they allow motorcycles, they will be accused of favouring one set of road users against another. So by a blanket ban on all vehicles other than busses the LTNZ can not be accused of favourtism/bias etc.

BRONZ need a win. Lobby groups win by doing their homework, and coming up with formulas in which they can justify their arguments, because at the end of the day the politicians have to justify their decisions to the general public. I used the Bus lane as an example of where in my opinion BRONZ get it wrong.

My ideas are

1 BRONZ need a name change. The name carries too much baggage as in failure.
1a BRONZ as an acronym sounds great but Biker Rights implies that bikers should have some kind of rights or priveledges over other road users.

2 There needs to be a Nationall corodination to discuss an issue in which they can raise public awareness not only in the biker community but in communiity as a whole.

3 Whatever issue they decide to raise it must include all road users.

This will ensure

3a The maximum number of participants and supporters
3b The result being that politicians will take more notice
3c The road driving public will benefit as a whole.

4 BRONZ could use any public protest (which should take place so as to gather media attention) as a membership drive.
4a Numbers count in lobby groups.

Contrary to what some think you do need to get some parlimentary support. Without it no matter how logical your arguments' are they will fall on deaf ears.

Beaurocrats only respond to authority. They are essentialy yes men and they only say yes to their masters. Get their masters on side and problems solved.

Not easy but pick the right issue, one that's winnable......................

Skyryder

[oldrider]

Ulysses are not a suitable lobby group fro motorcyclists in general because, by definition, they exclude a very large proportion of motorcyclists. (ie those who are not old).

Also , they are SO old. And conservative. And po-faced.

I think that putting forward an organsiation with an average membership age of about 120 (OK, should not be rude. But they ARE so OLD), is the exact wrong way to go.

We need more young people. Not more old farts.

Being "old" and a member of ULYSSES I actually agree with Ixion but I think BRONZ should seek more backing and support from Ulysses and any other active bike organisations that are out there.
BRONZ should also be hard out enlisting as many young and intelligent bikers as they can into their active ranks.
Thanks CaN and others for all of your recent efforts, I appreciate what you have been doing. Cheers John.

[James Deuce]

Being "old" and a member of ULYSSES I actually agree with Ixion but I think BRONZ should seek more backing and support from Ulysses and any other active bike organisations that are out there.
BRONZ should also be hard out enlisting as many young and intelligent bikers as they can into their active ranks.
Thanks CaN and others for all of your recent efforts, I appreciate what you have been doing. Cheers John.

There aren't very many young motorcyclists. Most motorcyclists in NZ are old enough to be junior Ulysses members.

I'd prefer rational arguments from people with experience to incoherent demands for attention from 12 year old's in a 25 year old's body thanks.

BRONZ doesn't exist outside AUckland. There might be 1 million people concentrated in Auckland, but BRONZ (like the rest of Auckland) is happy to ignore the rest of the country comprising 3 million who actually have the space to enjoy motorcycling.

[James Deuce]

With respect Jim2, if there are no BRONZ in Welly, and FA of them active elsewhere, why not pay your $20 and make a difference?

You are in a possition to mold the Wellington arm how you want it, and being in Wellington are the obvious group to deal with the government I would have thought.

BRONZ in the past suffered from the same problem as Federated Farmers. An organisation purporting to have National representation as a core goal, but in reality they were disorganised independent provincial groups without common goals or even clear organisational communication structures in place.

Pay $20 to BRONZ so I can have a meeting with myself?

BRONZ needs a national executive, a couple of clear issues that they are prepared to enter into dialogue with law makers, and a reason to belong. Most people enjoy the social aspect of motorcycling above all else. BRONZ in the past (and I've seen nothing that demonstrates anything different about the present) demanded unswerving dedication to the "cause" and anyone who was in it for a good time was a slacker. Lecturing and badgering the 98% of your membership who isn't interested in political activism is not a good way to ensure long term support.

Belonging to BRONZ needs to be a positive thing. I understand CaN's frustration but I've had my fill of being called names and shouted at by people from BRONZ and I would much rather put my energy into something that provides people with a positive experience of membership and presents an affable, coherent public face. NZers and NZ Politicians need to see that motorcyclists are people first and foremost, but also people with some good ideas about what comprises a sustainable long term transport plan. Sharing the burden of creating that plan tends to get policy analysts, lawmakers, transport ministers, and the people who design forms on side, because you're sharing their workload and common goals. BRONZ has always struck me as people who want to shout and demand change and then sit back while other people implement.

I might be completely wrong about the current organisation, and all the things I'm talking about may just boil down to my personal attitudes, but it takes a partnership to piss someone off.