How to brake quickly and safely

**sinned** · 14th November 2006, 16:57

I just spent all day Sunday on a Roadsafe course Advanced/Refresher and we did plenty of practice braking. Had the back wheel well up on one stop and was told that wasn't the aim of the exercise. This was same same course MyGSXF did a week or so before and reading what XP@ wrote in post #87 must have learnt from the same master. I know that I need to do a lot of practice to get to the stage where I can emergency brake in a real emergency and do everything right automatically. We were taught these steps: close throttle, front brake - lightly squeeze to settle the front then squeeze, clutch in, rear on lightly, tap down the gears as nearing a stop. This way the engine won't stall, you have a gear for a fast escape and maximum possible speed reduction. Also all fingers on the levers for a road bike - other finger rules may apply to trial, and off roaders.

**Toaster** · 14th November 2006, 20:05

Originally Posted by MyGSXF

my deepest respect for the family, for allowing their sons accident to be used as a training tool.. to help prevent further unnecessary loss!

I agree.... obviously we have learned/been reminded of an important skill in safe riding.

**FROSTY:Me** · 14th November 2006, 20:16

bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

**sinned** · 15th November 2006, 20:57

Originally Posted by FROSTY

bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

Frosty - you sure shut down this thread. No posts for 24 hours. Well I have just spent an hour practicing stopping and slow handling skills - I am feeling pretty good about that. But I still love the forum - addicted to the internet.

**MyGSXF:Me** · 15th November 2006, 21:04

Originally Posted by dennisr

Well I have just spent an hour practicing stopping and slow handling skills - I am feeling pretty good about that.

Awesome to hear you did the Roadsafe course dennisr..!!!

& going out practicing!!!!

Andrew & Lynne are fantastic aye.. a bloody wealth of knowledge!!!!!!

[/QUOTE] But I still love the forum - addicted to the internet

[/QUOTE]

hell yes.. I thoroughly agree... mee too...

Jen

**jonbuoy** · 15th November 2006, 21:52

Originally Posted by FROSTY

bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

Don't get you there frosty. This is one of the few topics on KB that is actually about riding, and a pretty important one. Different people have been taught different ways of emergency braking. Were discussing it. Pretty hard to prove without timing lights which one is the best.

**XP@** · 16th November 2006, 08:12

Originally Posted by FROSTY

bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

Ok, done the practice, now can we get back to the real business of key bashing.

From the small sample of tests I did last night (from 100kph) I could see little difference between clutch in or out, as long as I adjusted the pressure on the rear to suit.

**The Stranger:Me** · 16th November 2006, 08:20

Originally Posted by jonbuoy

Don't get you there frosty. This is one of the few topics on KB that is actually about riding, and a pretty important one. Different people have been taught different ways of emergency braking. Were discussing it. Pretty hard to prove without timing lights which one is the best.

We set up cones (cheep as chips from the warehouse) at 4m centres (about a car length) in a line.
Brake from the same speed each run at the first cone.
Try different techniques on each run and see what works the best.

Participating in and watching 100s of these I know which technique will work best.

**XP@** · 16th November 2006, 13:25

Originally Posted by CaN

Participating in and watching 100s of these I know which technique will work best.

This study recommends pulling the clutch but not changing down...
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

One thing I did notice myself doing last night, when practicing, was "forgetting" to downshift when I was trying really hard. But as I had prepared to start shifting down I could sort the right cog out easily as I stopped. and I guess if you don't stop then what gear you are in is pretty academic.

**Biff** · 17th November 2006, 12:43

Originally Posted by Ixion

No, the reason to ignore the clutch is not for the sake of engine breaking.

A Factual Yes. We were clearly advised not pull in the clutch during a 'holy shit!', 100% anchors on, emergency stop, in order to benefit from the bike's engine breaking properties....amongst other things. This was implicitly stated. It's not my interpretation of what was said/taught, and it was also printed in the accompanying course material.

I agree with you on the inherent risks associated with declutching during heavy braking, which could result in locking up a back wheel. But to me these are complimentary factors to be considered when deciding whether or not to engage the clutch - not ' in fact the exact opposite'..s.

'What more would engine breaking add?' - A couple of milliseconds/seconds/metres?

Originally Posted by XP@

This study recommends pulling the clutch but not changing down...
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

Apparently not according to the above?

Now I'm confused.

More practice needed me thinks. And a measuring tape.

**Ixion** · 17th November 2006, 16:32

Originally Posted by Biff

..
'What more would engine breaking add?' - A couple of milliseconds/seconds/metres?
..

But the rear tyre can only apply a certain (limited) deceleration. Put more g force through it than that and the wheel will lock (tyre lose traction). And, modern brakes can easily exceed that limit from almost any speed. (especially with the rear being light under front brake).

So if you are pressing the brake pedal hard enough to reach the limit of the tyre's traction, adding engine braking (extra force) will cause the wheel to lock. Which you must then compensate for by applying less brake pedal. So all you are doing to transferring the braking force from the brake disk to the clutch disk. You can't increase the tyre's traction capability by engine braking.

Of course, this assumes modern brakes. On the old Briddish clunkers with 5 inch SLS brakes any assistance was a good idea

EDIT. Of course, transferring the braking force from the brake disk to the clutch disk is a GoodIdea, because otherwise, as the rear end gets progressively lighter ,a dn speed decreases, unless you are VERY clever at gradually lessening back on the brake pedal , you will lock the rear wheel. Whereas if some of the braking is coming from the engine, since it slows down as speed slows , there is less likelihood of that ock up. But the advantage is extra stability , not extra braking. The pedal alone would give you as much braking as the tyre can handle.

**Mom** · 17th November 2006, 16:44

Originally Posted by MyGSXF

The objective is to stop as quickly & safely as possible.. using BOTH brakes & without locking the wheels, falling or stalling.

Control is lost as soon as wheel STOPS rolling.. so if you lock the wheel - release the brake & re-apply progressively.

One of the MOST important things is: to look UP & FORWARDS.. if you look down.. you will go down!!! (where ever you LOOK.. is where you will go!)

What she said!........good words Jen.........front brake is my first brake of choice, the rear for control........

Practice on wet surfaces too though, that can make a difference specially if there is any paint around!

**Disco Dan** · 20th November 2006, 11:25

Originally Posted by CaN

We set up cones (cheep as chips from the warehouse) at 4m centres (about a car length) in a line.
Brake from the same speed each run at the first cone.
Try different techniques on each run and see what works the best.

Participating in and watching 100s of these I know which technique will work best.

Thanks again CaN for the RRRS training... been out practicing locking my rear and finding out the different pressure i need to keep it moving when under heavy breaking on the front!

...sooo much conflicting information on here, i agree with FROSTY; get out there and practice! even if you dont have cones, get some chalk or something and practice braking quickly... see what works better etc.

*driveway covered in little black skid marks*

**XP@** · 20th November 2006, 12:37

BuckBuck01 has had the idea to do some training vids...

I would like to have a go at busting some stopping myths.
Anyone interested (in the wellington area) in getting a camera (I don't have one) some cones, a tape measure and some bikes.

Then busting the myths in this thread?

Would make a nice & useful addition to youTube.