Countersteering Confession

[McJim]

Well since my profession is often described as "Bean Counter" that means that at any speed - even a crawl in my driveway or in a car - park any turning I do must be a result of "Bean Counter Steering".

[Lil_Byte]

You may not believe it, but its an established physical principle coming from the gyroscope effect.
I would go into it further, but it'll need someone smarter than me to explain exactly why it happens.
A diagram would help, but I'm at work at the mo so I ain't got no time.

There is no such thing as physics - Take for example gravity - there is no such thing - it is just that the world sucks

and that is wjhat holds you down.

But anyway I was self taught at m/cycle riding - heard about that coutersteering thind and then went out and analysised what I did and it is in fact counter steering. Now that I am concious of it I have found it is easier to hold lines at reasonable speeds.

[marty]

in relation to the axle, the speed of the tyre is the same at all points around the circumference. in relation to the road, you are correct, however the wheel doesn't care whether it's spinning in a burnout or moving along with no slippage - it's speed relative to the axle is what it cares about. i can see how you would compare that to the advancing/retreating blade on a helicopter, however that is relative to airflow, like a tyre is relative to the road therefore although relative to the centre (mast) of the helicopter the tip speed is the same, the tip speed relative to the airflow changes as forward (or rearward) speed changes. as you know, a rotor rpm of (say 300rpm) stays at that rpm in the hover, or for forward flight, so the physical speed of the tip is the same.

i need another beer

[Mr. Peanut]

E=mc^2

[MattRSK]

E=mc^2

Thats an ingredient in coca cola is it not?

[laRIKin]

I've been plucking up the courage to say this for a while so here goes. Countersteering is all Bullshit, its a myth perpertrated by people who have nothing better to do in their spare time. There is no way Ive ever used it in my years of bike riding so there!!!!







So I went for a ride the other day.................and I do

When I was younger I use to think that it was sort of a myth or a black art.

That was until when I was at a race meeting and I or someone else over tightened my steering dampener.

I flew in to a corner and I saw God and my miserable life go by while I pushed and pulled on the bars to try and get around that corner.
I thought that I was going to bend the bars before I got around the corner or crash.

And was made to be a believer in a nano second and never looked back after that.

Stopped backed off the dampener (old bike and could not reach it on the bike) changed undies let heart rate drop a bit big deep breaths and carried on racing.

[Skyryder]

I've been plucking up the courage to say this for a while so here goes. Countersteering is all Bullshit, its a myth perpertrated by people who have nothing better to do in their spare time. There is no way Ive ever used it in my years of bike riding so there!!!!







So I went for a ride the other day.................and I do

The mistake that many have with counter steering is that they think it is something the rider has a choice in doing.

There was a thread somewhere back where the poster wanted to know 'how' to counter steer. He/she was under the assumption that counter steering was some kind of technical method of cornering. It is not. For anyone who realy wants to put this to the test their is a quick and easy method.
Next time you are on the track go for a test ride and try and corner with your hands off the handle bars. Gyrscopic forces will prevent you from doing this to such a degree that your bike will only 'shift' to the left or the right depending on how you shift your body weight. You will not effect a safe turn.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Re-read his post, he does believe in it!

I did but nearly missed it.

Skyryder

[Ixion]

It had not been invented when I learned to ride, so I have never bothered with it.

I had enough trouble coping with the new inventions of my own youth like gravity, I can't be having with such new fangled stuff at my time of life.

[erik]

Countersteering isn't only due to gyroscopic effect. Compare a bike to balancing a pole on your hand (eg a baseball bat or a broom). If you want to move the pole to the left, you have to move your hand quickly to the right to get it to lean to the left, then you move your hand to the left to move the pole. To prevent it from falling over, you have to move your hand quicker than the pole, so that it goes back to a bit past vertical (leaning right slightly), and you can then slow it down and balance it at vertical again.

Same sort of thing with a bike, except that it's the front wheel's contact patch that moves from side to side (the rear wheel follows) and the bike leans.

The control force on a Helicopters spinning disk is exerted or activated 90 degrees before it is meant to take effect. This tilts the disk in the appropriate direction.

I don't think so. AFAIK the swashplate adjusts the angle of attack of the blades in alignment with the helicopter, not 90° before.

...
Next time you are on the track go for a test ride and try and corner with your hands off the handle bars. Gyrscopic forces will prevent you from doing this to such a degree that your bike will only 'shift' to the left or the right depending on how you shift your body weight. You will not effect a safe turn.

Have you ever tried turning with your hands off the bars? The steering geometry on most (all?) bikes is set up so that if you shift your weight, the bike will turn. I remember someone posting here about someone on a scooter riding it down a hill (with them as pillion) without hands, just shifting their weight.
On my bike I occasionally mess around seeing how I can corner with my hands off the bars (only just off, ready to grab them...). Have to do it going downhill though because otherwise the bike slows down too much.

[marty]

sorry erik, but countersteering is entirely due to gyroscopic precession. a broomstick as you describe has a completely different behaviour than a rotating mass. this is proven at low speed on the bike, where pulling on the right bar will induce a turn to the right, however a pull on the right bar at speed will induce a lean to the left.

and yes, the input to a swashplate on a helicopter rotor is 90deg to the desired action. have a look at a simple one like a robbie - pushing the cyclic forward (to induce a forward tilting of the disc and subsequent forward flight) will tilt the swashplate across the longitudinal axis, not the lateral axis. the result of the swashplate tilting across the longitudinal axis will be that the disc tilts across the lateral axis (tilts forward) and lo and behold, forward flight!

now don't forget, that the tilting of the swashplate only changes the angle of the blades, and the blade angle change creates the tilt of the disc - don't get confused with the swashplate tilting the disc (it doesn't).

ahh rotary theory of flight.......great fun! try explaining it to pilots!

of course, once you have acheived the mythical forward flight, don't forget torque issues, so you need rudder, then once flying forward in balance, the advancing blade has a higher lift component than the retreating blade......watch a sea king flying along - it flies on a lean!

[thealmightytaco]

Countersteering isn't only due to gyroscopic effect...

Yeah I'm with erik here, it's as much if not more about knocking the tyres contact patches out from under the centre of gravity of the bike rather than the using the gyroscopic effect.

The gyroscopic effect is the magic that keeps the bike upright and stable while you're rolling, and makes it hard to get the bike to lean because by the gyro effect the spinning wheels prevent the change of direction. Adding a slight very easy steering angle however, knocks the wheels out from under the bike and makes it lean over rather easily, as the whole bikes weight then hauls the bike down to the ground. Rather than just your fairy ass trying to stand out the side. So the whole thing topples sideways up to that place you stop counter steering, the gyroscopic effect then holding in that place as the camber thrust of the wheels hauls you around the corner. Then you gas it and steer the wheels back under the bike and it stands up.

In my humble opinion, counter steering is about shifting weight to manipulate the gyroscopic effect. Whereas the gyroscopic effect is what makes cornering such a bastard if you don't counter steer, aka the steering damper story.

[marty]

transfer the input on your bars to the axle. pulling on the right bar pulls the right axle rearward. the wheel is rotating forward (clockwise looking from the right). pulling rearward on the right axle is the same as pushing the wheel at the 9 o'clock position. gyroscopic presession will then move that input 90degrees in the direction of rotation, to the 12 o'clock position and the top of the wheel will 'fall' to the left. as the bottom of the wheel is effectively fixed to the road all of the input goes to the top of the wheel, so the action is centred on the bottom of the wheel, not the centre of the rotating mass

[marty]

In my humble opinion, counter steering is about shifting weight to manipulate the gyroscopic effect. Whereas the gyroscopic effect is what makes cornering such a bastard if you don't counter steer, aka the steering damper story.

to test this theory, ride your bike on a straight (closed) road at say, 80k. pull on the right handlebar, or push on the left one (invokes the same effect to the front wheel). do NOTHING else. do not shift any weight at all.

report back what happens to the bike.

[thealmightytaco]

transfer the input on your bars to the axle. pulling on the right bar pulls the right axle rearward. the wheel is rotating forward (clockwise looking from the right). pulling rearward on the right axle is the same as pushing the wheel at the 9 o'clock position. gyroscopic presession will then move that input 90degrees in the direction of rotation, to the 12 o'clock position and the top of the wheel will 'fall' to the left. as the bottom of the wheel is effectively fixed to the road all of the input goes to the top of the wheel.

The wheel is never fixed, and as you pull on the right the wheel steers out to the right, while the bikes COG stays put, so the bike falls over. I'm still with erik.

Tomorrow I'm going to pull a wheel off the bmx and see what happens. The wheel needs to roll over sideways when you pull one end of the axle back toward yourself for gyroscopic effect to aid in turning the bike...