Running Wide

[The_Dover]

i generally shit my pants and hope I make it.

the rest is just instinct, talent and instinct.

[The Stranger:Me]

Ok good points raised there Biff and others posts do sound logical as well.

We were talking about this the other day and duc-girl made the comment that when this happens she tells herself "I know the bike can do it".

I find it works, puts your faith in the bike and relaxes the rider, and hell if the bike can't do it you're probably screwed anyway, so what the hell.

[onearmedbandit]

I'd agree with keeping the gas on or increasing it a little. All to do with not loading the front tyre any further, which in an OFC is already loaded probably too much. Increasing the throttle input will take the load off the front onto the back (where the majority of the 'load' should be) allowing the front to do it's job better. I've done this myself before, into a corner a little hotter than I was expecting, and given the bike a little more gas, you can feel the front 'ease' up and the bike tips in further.

[vifferman]

The most important thing is from your first post, Biff.
If you think you're not going to make it around the corner, the chances are you're looking AT the corner, rather than through the corner. If you keep looking at the vanishing point, you're not going to panic so much, and you're not target-fixating on where you don't want to go.

Also, as OAB and others have said, feeding in more throttle (gently) may seem counter-intuitive, but the shift of weight to the rear it produces, and the dynamics of contact patches, gyroscopic foces, etc etc do help you to make the corner.

[Motu]

the twist of the wrist suggest a throttle off will cause the rear of the bike to lower, and decrease ground clearance.
it also loads the front tyre with more weight, asking it to grip more, when in the perfect situation, the rear should have 75% (maybe even more) of the weight.

From my limited research (reading some shit on the net ) in any corner, most of the steering is done by the rear.
An example of this when I power out of a corner sometimes (like maybe twice ) my front can lift off the ground, and yet my bike continues to corner through the exit.

All the pros say throttle on, and it is what I have used so far ... in an OFC I would add an extra bit of throttle (maybe 5-10 degrees .. I dunno .. just a bit) plus I move my upper body, and counter steer ever so carefully .. I don't want my excessive heart rate translating into a heavy hand on the bars, and an eventual over reaction.
the times I've been in an OFC, what I have done in reality is shed as much speed as possible, tip the bike as much as my pea brain will allow it, then gas it . .gently


then again, I could be talking from hole in my arse .. wtf do I know

Yep,I can't even edit your post as it's all true,even the talking out your arse bit.Sports bikes are a bit limited in what you can do with narrow bars and the tank in the way - but I move forward as far as I can go,on my adventure bikes that means right up the nose of the seat onto the tank....my balls have shrunk into my body at this stage so no worries there.Now I am right over the bars and can use my shoulders to muscle the bike....I'll push the bike down and bring on a tad of throttle,just lifting the slides,gently does it and bring it on more as you get control and tighten the turn.With the throttle shut you'll just keep pushing.

I still do it,apparently years of experiance can't cure stupidity.A few weeks ago I came across a tight uphill lefthander and I often push on these....I wonder....? Sure enough I pushed wide right to the gutter on the otherside of the road (plenty of visability,no danger to myself or others) A few hours later I came back through the same corner and did it exactly the same way! I need to go back and sort this one out,do it several times and see where I'm getting it wrong.

[terbang]

Survival Errors
Each of the common, garden-variety survival reactions most of us
have can either cause or contribute to crashing. On the less dramatic but
very important side, they are the source of 100 percent of all rider errors.
They do, in fact, ruin your riding. Let's look. On a motorcycle, survival
reactions have specific results. Each carries with it enough force and
command value to change the rider's mind and control actions. Take, for
example, rolling on/off the throttle while cornering. My survey of over 8000
riders concluded that not one of them ever intended to roll on/off; that 100
percent of them intended to roll it on, throughout the turn, as their basic
plan. Something changed their minds. Rolling off the throttle is survival
reaction (sr) number 1. Survey shows it to be the front line of defense
when any circumstance triggers a SR. The standard SR triggers are:
"In too fast."
"Going too wide,"
"Too steep lean angle."
"Concerned about traction."
Bumps, traffic and others are secondary sources of unneeded
throttle roll-off. That riders most often realize the roll-off was not
necessary, right after doing it, is also further proof it was an automatic SR,
Ever happen to you?
Survival Reactions
The enemy is tough but limited in number:
1. Roll-off the gas.
2. Tighten on bars.
3. Narrowed and frantically hunting field of view.
4. Fixed attention (on something).
5. Steering in the direction of the fixed attention.
6. No steering (frozen) or ineffective
(not quick enough or too early) steering.
7. Braking errors (both over- and under-braking).
Survival reactions (SRs) usually affect the arms first. Your arms control:
steering, braking, throttle and influence handling.
Everyone has had all of the above happen to them. Are they
automatic? Take tightening on the bars as another example. Do you
command your arms to tighten up, or do you find they have done it on their
own? Do you choose to have your attention narrow and target fix? Did you
over-brake on purpose?
Whether for a real or an imagined reason, anything that triggers
one of the above survival reactions (SRs) is an attempt to reduce or
avoid injury. None of them work in harmony with machine technology
or rider control.

[Toaster]

I wondered where that 5 metres of fencing wire wrapped around me fairing came from.

Good thread dude.

[idb]

The 888 definitely doesn't want go around a corner under brakes or trailing throttle, and it's a heavy pig to try and countersteer under those circumstances.

More throttle is the answer for me.
The main times that I have what I call a 'sphincter moment' is if there is gravel, wet or oil in the corner.

With the Darmah the technique is a bit different.
The steering is a bit more lazy on that so I keep the bike upright as far as I can into the corner and hard on the front brake, then tip it in just as I let go of the brake.
This steepens the fork rake and sharpens the steering up hugely.

Mind you, as said before, this has only come from experience and knowing my bikes, they both react differently.
Probably the hardest thing to learn when I first started riding, and the biggest cause of sphincter moments, was to trust my tyres to keep gripping...that is - leaning is a good thing and your tyres will handle plenty of it.

[terbang]

Something I keep in mind is that I know that my bike/tyre combination will easily and safely lean over untill it scrapes (on a dry surface) and If I overcook a corner a bit then I atleast owe it to myself to take it there before standing it up and going wide. I have seen many a rider sail off the edge of the road without getting anywhere near the limits of their bike because of the afore mentioned SR. We often need to be able to rely on our bikes ability to turn. I find that if I overcook a corner, leaving the power where it is and just dropping my shoulder into the turn (forces more countersteer) while tightening the turn it gives me time to re-evaluate my situation and apply more or less countersteer and to adjust power. It is the front wheel that controls the bike and the rear that provides the (majority) turning force. A good thing to keep in mind is that once you decide to start rolling on the power in a turn, it should be a one way action and at the worst you should only freeze it where it is (no more power). The only time you should take it off is when you, and there comes a last ditch effort time when youve really, really overcooked it and decided to straighten up and hit the picks..!
All that said and done as an escape response and like most things in life, prevention is better than the cure. If you are unfamiliar with the road then don't be surprised when you find a few curves that look benign and then just seem to tighten up. If you are allready on the edge of your and your bikes ability and the curve unexpectedly tightens, then basicly, you have allready fucked yourself. That is one of the fundamental differences between a road rider and a track rider. The track rider has the advantage of familiarity (yes I know there is the first lap). The road rider often has to take into account or tap dance in a much more unpredictable environment, often with a few cages coming from the opposite direction there as well.

[Motu]

Analysing the corner in my previous post,it's the opposite of a corner tightening up,it's an increasing radius corner.I think because I always look well into a corner I am seeing the open exit and coming into the tight entry too fast,there is no way I can carry that speed early in the corner and so push wide.I need to either cut my entry speed....or turn from the right hand gutter.Considering the low traffic and good visability,I will choose the latter,but you didn't read that....

[bert_is_evil]

What do you do when you run wide, bike is leaned over so bottom of fairing is scraping and back tyre starts to lose grip? I had quite few of these brown trouser moments at track day - I increased the throttle and tried to countersteer as hard as I could but it eventually ended in a low side (no surprises there I guess)

[terbang]

And quite simply once you have met the physical limits of your bikes ability to turn any tighter, and you are required to turn tighter then your available options and the results aren't all that nice.

[Fatjim]

I was under the impression that rolling on the the throttle to lighten the front wheel is a good thing, but only once you've got the right lean on. The question was to do with running wide, i.e. not having the right lean on, not losing front end grip.

[Motu]

The question was to do with running wide.

The answer is you need to turn tighter.....just what all the replies have been about.

[Wenier]

The only time i have a problem is when the hard engine braking combined with hard braking gets the back to start skipping as then ya just cant brake up to the corner as hard. I then run wide under braking upright, and at the last minute (centre line) throw it in hard and throttle it through the corner and out the other side. Usually works quite well, rolling on usually gets a little bit of drift at the end of the turn but thats alright.