OK - wat the f@ck is going on??

[beyond]

With the greatest of respect to all who are suffering and hurting and to the mods for the job they face, I'm with Terbang on this one too.

I have thought about getting my bike repaired and leaving it at Colemans to sell on behalf or not doing group rides at all again.

I love the friendship and catching up with new faces that I see on this site but if I continue on the group rides then I could be next without any understanding of what did take place. I only know that two experienced riders had a head on in somewhat dubious circumstances and if it happened to them, what hope have the rest of us got in similar circumstances?

I have never set out to cause trouble or stir for the hell of it. I try as hard as anything to be sensitive to all issues and all sides but other peoples lives are what we are talking about.

I have seen learner riders positng about how can we expect to be safe on the roads when two of our best riders go down?

I don't know the answers, I am not God but some of the newbies on this site need reassurance and I and others need to know what we can do or how we can be prepared to prevent this happening to us.

If group rides continue and I believe they will, as that is the nature of this site, then riders need to be prepared in case the same elements come together and we see a repeat. I couldn't live with myself if I had to endure what Quasi and others saw and what they have been through.

Words fail me.......

Whilst I understand the juggling act that the mods must undertake and respect their position. There was a thread "time to reflect" that seems to have dissapeared for some reason.
I was away for a couple of days and maybe it got out of hand and was deleted out of respect.
However I also want to find out how the bloody hell two riders, two extremely competent riders, managed to collide head on on a KB ride. The reason I want to know is because I intend to continue attending KB group rides and don't want to end up witnessing or being involved with a repeat of what has just happened. It wasn't an act of god, there will be a systemic process of attitudes and events that led us all here. Lets face it, something heavy has just happened, this site bears some responsibility for it and we don't want it to happen again. Open, frank and constructive discussion (not apportioning blame or finger pointing) is needed on this site to avoid a repeat and to possibly make some good for our future (the living KBers) out of such a tragic event. Sweeping reality under the mat makes no sense.

[Blackbird]

I love the friendship and catching up with new faces that I see on this site but if I continue on the group rides then I could be next without any understanding of what did take place.

I completely and utterly agree. When Kiwi Biker was first set up, I went on a group ride to Kawhia. I'm not going to labour the point but the standard of riding I saw that day scared me so badly that I have never gone on a group ride with strangers since then. I'm sure that most group rides are fine but I'm simply not prepared to put myself at risk or see others in a similar position. It's a heck of a dilemma because I love meeting other riders and I've made some very close friends through Kiwi Biker. However, I prefer to ride with a few people I know and trust with perhaps a couple of people I don't know which makes the situation more manageable.

This isn't a sledge of group rides, simply my personal view formed by a bad experience.

[scumdog]

As reversal of above comments; I was on the KB ride/get-together last weekend, we covered 100's of km together in various sized groups from 4 to over a dozen yet I neither saw nor heard of any risky riding by those attending.

(Sure, one or two 'opened 'er up' speed-wise but not at risk to any others.)

[Blackbird]

As reversal of above comments; I was on the KB ride/get-together last weekend, we covered 100's of km together in various sized groups from 4 to over a dozen yet I neither saw nor heard of any risky riding by those attending.

(Sure, one or two 'opened 'er up' speed-wise but not at risk to any others.)

Ahem...... scientifically invalid example Scummy if they knew your profession

[scumdog]

Ahem...... scientifically invalid example Scummy if they knew your profession

Oh they did all right - but I feel it was not an issue to the vast majority of them judging by comments and general behaviour - after all, 'some' pulled monos beside me before heading off 'fairly quickly' .

[Paul in NZ]

Folks - don't you think this thread has withered and died?

For what it's worth - Perhaps it is time to try to think outside the square. I've been thinking (dangerous as that is) that day tripping on sportsbikes is NOT the only use for a motorcycle. Perhaps it's the types of rides KB is organising that don't in fact suit most peoples style or ability that is part of the problem? I'm sorry but it is actually quite hard to ride well in a group at the legal limit let alone at the kinds of velocities some prefer. In my opinion if you want to do that - you should be heading off in ones and twos.

Perhaps some of us need to step up and find a gentler use that will allow some folks to get a few miles under their belts and discover a little more of this great country of ours. The odd overnighter could not hurt - trips to interesting venues etc are always great.

Just my opinion of course but one thing is certain, if we keep on repeating the actions of the past we will keep on producing the same results - and that opinion is not just based on my KB experience but on 35 years of riding.

Paul N

[The Stranger:Me]

I have thought about getting my bike repaired and leaving it at Colemans to sell on behalf or not doing group rides at all again.

I love the friendship and catching up with new faces that I see on this site but if I continue on the group rides then I could be next without any understanding of what did take place. I only know that two experienced riders had a head on in somewhat dubious circumstances and if it happened to them, what hope have the rest of us got in similar circumstances?

Do you believe that the fact there was a group contributed to the accident? They could have been out for a fang together (sans the group) and the outcome could have been the same. How do you explain what happened? there is no explanation. The accident was a freak. Freaks happen, that is the way of the world. Had either one taken 2 seconds longer or shorter to turn around or rest under a tree, they probably would have had a laugh about the out come and no one would be questioning what happened or why.

I have never set out to cause trouble or stir for the hell of it. I try as hard as anything to be sensitive to all issues and all sides but other peoples lives are what we are talking about.

I have seen learner riders positng about how can we expect to be safe on the roads when two of our best riders go down?

Mate, we ride motorbikes. There is no safe. Best thing for learners is to recognise this, and this is a reminder. Look at you. Not sure if you remember me, but I have seen you ride several times I was impressed at the way that big 14 is handled in your hands, and you certainly don't come off as crazy or nothing. Yet you binned. We all do. Riding a motorcycle is not safe, period! There is no way to tell a learner that riding is safe, because it isn't.
Don't like it - sell your bike, but same thing happens in cages all the time too.

I don't know the answers, I am not God but some of the newbies on this site need reassurance and I and others need to know what we can do or how we can be prepared to prevent this happening to us.

If group rides continue and I believe they will, as that is the nature of this site, then riders need to be prepared in case the same elements come together and we see a repeat. I couldn't live with myself if I had to endure what Quasi and others saw and what they have been through.

Words fail me.......

Group rides will continue and in particular for the noobs to which you refer.
From the noob perspective they are important. They recieve the support and a degree of protection from the group. The noob can select a mentor and follow his/her lead, can ask for tips (they even get them when they don't ask if I see a problem) and see how it is done properly.

Conversely they can also see how not to ride properly. They can judge the quality of advice. You get heaps of advice on KB, but who do you listen to? everyone's advice is different. On a group ride they get to see who they wish to accept advice from and who you obviously don't listen to.

[Ixion]

...
There is no way to tell a learner that riding is safe, because it isn't.
...

Yet that is exactly the message that this site sends to novice riders. Not necessarily true learners , but those are at greater risk the rider with a few months or years of experience. Who knows all there is to know.

Let us consider a novice rider , who joins this site. Assume him to be a typical young lad, eager and without fear (a novice granny is another matter).

He hears the words and tales of more experienced riders. Riders on big powerful bikes, the riders he would like to emulate.

He hears, and sees , how they ride. Some ride very fast. They are respected and applauded for that (no problem so far). He sees that riding is regarded as a very competative affair . The main thing on a ride is to "give the learn" to the other guy. At the very least, to "keep up" . He learns that anyone who cannot is a "homo". The greatest condemnation that can be made of a rider is to be slow. He hears that safety is "ghey"

He observes also that many riders , in pursuance of "giving the learn" and "keeping up", and avoiding being a "homo" for being too slow, are prepared to ride in ways that are blatently unsafe.

But he is reassured that he need not worry. "You will crash. Everyone does. You're a homo if you don't." he is told. But, that's OK. Because crashing is just a joke (apart from damage to the bike). So long as you are wearing "the gear" you will not be hurt. And crashing is inevitable. Nothing to worry about. Not crashing because of excessive speed or dangerous riding, anyway. It's not even called a "crash" . It's just a "bin". The only crashes that are deprecated are those caused by cages.

And the administrative policies of the site wherever possible make sure that conflicting realities are kept hidden. Our novice will not be troubled, if at all possible, by any reports of riders actually being hurt .

Now, how do you think our bulletproof 10 foot tall young man is going to respond to this?

Personally, so long as I am not around (and I take care that I am not) I do not care how dangerously experienced riders ride. If they crash and are injured or killed, well , they took the risks. Presumably, they did so knowing what the consequences might be . So it seems rather hypocritical to be shocked or horrified when those consequences come home to roost.

I do care however that this site , quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences.

Condonation of dangerous riding by experienced riders is one thing. Allowing novices to think such riding is safe and admirable is quite another.

[scumdog]

Ixion has summed it up to a 'T'.

I hope a lot of you read that and digest it because it is so, so true!

[Quasievil]

Yet that is exactly the message that this site sends to novice riders. Not necessarily true learners , but those are at greater risk the rider with a few months or years of experience. Who knows all there is to know.

Let us consider a novice rider , who joins this site. Assume him to be a typical young lad, eager and without fear (a novice granny is another matter).

He hears the words and tales of more experienced riders. Riders on big powerful bikes, the riders he would like to emulate.

He hears, and sees , how they ride. Some ride very fast. They are respected and applauded for that (no problem so far). He sees that riding is regarded as a very competative affair . The main thing on a ride is to "give the learn" to the other guy. At the very least, to "keep up" . He learns that anyone who cannot is a "homo". The greatest condemnation that can be made of a rider is to be slow. He hears that safety is "ghey"

He observes also that many riders , in pursuance of "giving the learn" and "keeping up", and avoiding being a "homo" for being too slow, are prepared to ride in ways that are blatently unsafe.

But he is reassured that he need not worry. "You will crash. Everyone does. You're a homo if you don't." he is told. But, that's OK. Because crashing is just a joke (apart from damage to the bike). So long as you are wearing "the gear" you will not be hurt. And crashing is inevitable. Nothing to worry about. Not crashing because of excessive speed or dangerous riding, anyway. It's not even called a "crash" . It's just a "bin". The only crashes that are deprecated are those caused by cages.

And the administrative policies of the site wherever possible make sure that conflicting realities are kept hidden. Our novice will not be troubled, if at all possible, by any reports of riders actually being hurt .

Now, how do you think our bulletproof 10 foot tall young man is going to respond to this?

Personally, so long as I am not around (and I take care that I am not) I do not care how dangerously experienced riders ride. If they crash and are injured or killed, well , they took the risks. Presumably, they did so knowing what the consequences might be . So it seems rather hypocritical to be shocked or horrified when those consequences come home to roost.

I do care however that this site , quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences.

Condonation of dangerous riding by experienced riders is one thing. Allowing novices to think such riding is safe and admirable is quite another.

Couldnt Bling you on that one, but mate that was fucken brilliant !!!

[Blairos]

Ixion, what a great post!

Personally, I couldnt give a toss if people call me a homo for making sure I get to my destination in one piece, I'm still having fun, which is why I took up this hobby.
"Experienced" to me, means recounting the times you have got from "A" to "B" unscathed, not about how I am supposed to explain anything to my Insurance Company on how my bike ended up in a tree...

[Blondini]

What ixion said I joined the site to find a rider to take me pillion ,thats all end of story.Now couple of months down the track I have my own bike and I love it ,don't get me wrong,But I am being told"you ride a motorbike now you must go faster"CRICKEY I think motorbikes are seriously dangerous and the faster I go the more damage to me STUFF the bike sorry but seriously You can always get another bike...people well .... I am told yes you will come off,Well scuse me But I do not want to fall off I want to be able to go at a speed that is legal but within my limits .At speedway they are taught to lay down their bikes in event of a "spill"If I am going to come off then this is something i would be keen on learning.Thats just my thoughts,there is more...always is And the people I am meeting ,they are the most decent bunch of caring people I have met and I have met a lot of people in my life.This site is addictive I am sure spank me has put something in there.

[Macktheknife]

But, as a new rider, I have to say, if guys who had the skilll and experience that these riders had, can lose their lives on the roads, then what hope is there for me to stay safe?
I need to have this discussion, so I can learn from their mistakes, so that my family is spared the pain that their families are feeling. I am just one of many who feels this way.
I say this without meaning to cause more pain to those who have lost, just to protect those families who haven't (yet).
These guys are heroes to many on this site, who try to emulate them in their exploits, do we really want them to join their heroes because the true and frank discussion of that weekends events hurts.

Hi YT,
Just a thought on your post, I will not discuss the situation of the fallen riders or comment on the mods decisions, but I will say this.
If you ride at your own pace, within your own limits, and take instruction and advice from those you trust, you will be doing all you reasonably can to improve your skill and protect yourself from the risks inherent in riding.
If we ignore the basic rules of riding we are likely to put ourselves in danger, focus on what you do know about keeping yourself safe on the road. The specifics of these accidents may shed some light on an issue that affects some or most of us BUT there is no gaurantee of that.
Respectfully
Mack

[riffer]

Yet again you summed it up perfectly Ixion.

[The Stranger:Me]

Yet that is exactly the message that this site sends to novice riders. Not necessarily true learners , but those are at greater risk the rider with a few months or years of experience. Who knows all there is to know.

Let us consider a novice rider , who joins this site. Assume him to be a typical young lad, eager and without fear (a novice granny is another matter).

He hears the words and tales of more experienced riders. Riders on big powerful bikes, the riders he would like to emulate.

He hears, and sees , how they ride. Some ride very fast. They are respected and applauded for that (no problem so far). He sees that riding is regarded as a very competative affair . The main thing on a ride is to "give the learn" to the other guy. At the very least, to "keep up" . He learns that anyone who cannot is a "homo". The greatest condemnation that can be made of a rider is to be slow. He hears that safety is "ghey"

He observes also that many riders , in pursuance of "giving the learn" and "keeping up", and avoiding being a "homo" for being too slow, are prepared to ride in ways that are blatently unsafe.

But he is reassured that he need not worry. "You will crash. Everyone does. You're a homo if you don't." he is told. But, that's OK. Because crashing is just a joke (apart from damage to the bike). So long as you are wearing "the gear" you will not be hurt. And crashing is inevitable. Nothing to worry about. Not crashing because of excessive speed or dangerous riding, anyway. It's not even called a "crash" . It's just a "bin". The only crashes that are deprecated are those caused by cages.

And the administrative policies of the site wherever possible make sure that conflicting realities are kept hidden. Our novice will not be troubled, if at all possible, by any reports of riders actually being hurt .

Now, how do you think our bulletproof 10 foot tall young man is going to respond to this?

Personally, so long as I am not around (and I take care that I am not) I do not care how dangerously experienced riders ride. If they crash and are injured or killed, well , they took the risks. Presumably, they did so knowing what the consequences might be . So it seems rather hypocritical to be shocked or horrified when those consequences come home to roost.

I do care however that this site , quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences.

Condonation of dangerous riding by experienced riders is one thing. Allowing novices to think such riding is safe and admirable is quite another.

Whew, lots in there Ixion.

Where to start?
Well, ok, got to admit that on the face of what you say makes a lot of sense. But I will take issue with a few things.

For a start, the site. I really don't see how this site bares any responsibility. The members perhaps, but I feel the distinction should be drawn so as not to (mistakenly in my view) cast aspersion on those responsible for the provision and administration. The site also has VERY MANY positive aspects. Where else would people turn to for training and assistance with technical issues and maintenence etc, all of which this site (the members) does provide.

Sure the good (read fast and/or stunt etc) riders are held in high regard. They are inspirational, they can take your breath away as you watch in awe. They always will be. Is it that bad to want to emulate your heros? Heck I would love to be able to ride like some of these guys. Is it that bad to aspire to more than you are now? I believe it is not. That is what causes us to extend ourselves and our abilities. I believe that this is a positive.

Your description of "the learn" and binning and homos is in my view 2 things - bravado and the natural tendancy of humans to simply get up and get on with life. I binned on a country road. What do I do? give up riding? sulk? cry? No, put on a brave face (even though I know I fucked up) brush it off and get on with life - that is what you do, that is what humans should do. This is just the way of the world. If the younger ones are that disturbed by being labelled a homo, then there is little we can do about that. Shit if it were that big a deal no one would buy a Honda would they. Either way you are still going to have to deal with people whom haven't matured yet. This is a good place to grow some thicker skin.

Saying the attitudes or environment here is negative for those learning is like blaming television for violence. Get off, society was a lot more voilent, we managed to have plenty of wars and kill millions of humans before the advent of television.

Where do you get off blaming the site for "quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences."

The only reason we are even discussing this is because of this site. The only reason I could contribute to IL4 (a guy I have never seen or met) is because of this site. We know of Paul (motobob) because of this site. Cagers are killed and maimed daily and the effect is limited to a close group of friends and family, yet here we have aproximately 10-15% of the motorcycling public aware and hurting and thinking about the tragic events of the past month or so - the site has been immensley constructive in delivering the message you seek to deliver, more so than any gore advert on TV or any other medium could hope to be.