ACC Survey

[Squeak the Rat]

There's something else about the all-black gears. There is a full shape of a human being all one colour (black).

What do the army use when they don't want to be seen? They break up the patterns so that a soldier doesn't have a distinct outline and consistent colour (ie camouflage or DPM's).

Wearing all these different colour bits and pieces of biking gear might actually be counter-productive.

The stats may show white helmets and high vis wearers being under-represented in accidents. But is this because the people that where wear these items are more cautious in general?

[Edit:]
PS Will, I live in Auckland and cannot recall any "Lookout for Bikes" signs on the motorway onramps. Do you have any measurements to show how effective these were? Can something more effective than a billboard be done to ensure driver education?

[MSTRS:Me]

... today's kids are so namby-pambied, cuddled and cossetted, and unadventurous, that they don't know how to handle dangerous things like candles...

Or perhaps when afforded the rare opportunity, they 'binge'...

[sunhuntin]

ive had one accident, and a couple of near misses in the near two years ive been riding legally. my biggest and first was in october last year. heading to work, wearing helmet, jeans, good boots and a singlet. youd think the sun glaring off snow white upper arms would be enough, but i had my light on just in case.
come up to a stop sign controlled intersection, where i had right of way [for those familiar, it was where write price used to be.] im doing about 55k, as per usual. start to overtake a row of cars turning left to pick up kids from intermediate. there are cars at both stop signs. ive just cleared the row of cars ive overtaken [safely i might add] when a car on my left pulls from her stop sign. i look at her front bumper, and then to the opposing lane, which had oncoming cars right the way up. i choose to hit her rather than a car going about 50k or more.
my front end hit her left indicator. i was up on the pegs and sailing before i knew what happened. couple of mid air rotations [why couldnt i do that when i was a kid and wanted to??] and slap, im on the ground, flat on my back. a quick check tells me everything hurts, but nothing appears to be missing.
i struggle to my feet and take my helmet off cos i feel like a dick wearing it and not being on the bike. my topbox somehow didnt land on my head, and it held my jacket and, more important, my cell phone. i got it about an inch off the ground before i dropped it. too heavy. my backpack is sitting on her bonnet, and my bike [with bungy from the pack] are half under her front end, sorta in the middle of the road.
i limped to the footpath and sat down, to be met with "i didnt see you, im so sorry, ill pay for everything"
fire engine shows up. by this time, im flat on the ground wanting to hurl my entire insides onto the ground. my left jeans leg is a mess and that leg hurts like no bodies business. so does my right knee, but its not as bad.
ambulance arrives. someone has rescued my bike and other gear, and im givin my backpack. the bikes bars are fucked, missing a lever and mirror, and theres a huge dent in the tank from where my right knee hugged into it.
cops and workmate show up. am so pleased to see my workmate, but she couldnt stay. i sent her back with messages. cops talk to both me and the cager. im loaded in the ambulance and carted off, talking to the guy about tattoos.
wait at hospital and freeze my ass off, due to my jackets being in the topbox [which i also have, somehow, along with my keys.] parents show up, and i get taken for xrays. 2 or 3 rays later, im stuck in a cast, for what turns out to be a hair on the lens. my left leg will never have any feeling in it again, and is basically scar tissue from the knee down. my right knee will pain for the rest of my life, and will give difficulty when kneeling.
the letter i get from the police tells me: she wont be charged, despite the fact she ran a stop sign without a clear view in either direction [due to the turning cars on my left] and the fact she showed remorse [so did i by not knocking her block off] it also is worded in a way to say i should be grateful to not be charged myself for going a little over the limit.
my bike was written off. my legs are stuffed and will only get worse. would a hi-viz vest have helped? no. has the accident changed my riding habits? no. i still ride in tshirts and less when the suns warm, and often at over 50k where theres enough room. has it changed her habits? i doubt it. if i could remember what she looked like, id send her home with a black eye.

my point it, the only thing that will keep us bikers safe is proper CAR DRIVER EDUCATION! you dont pull out from anywhere just assuming the way will be clear. who cares if you get there 5 mins late, so long as the 5 mins isnt the difference between life and death for someone else. better to get there late, than never get there at all. about 5 seconds would have been the difference between me still being in working order, and her being held up for a lot longer due to the motorbike being under her bumper. 5 seconds.

[Lucy]

That is a bummer about your accident, sorry to hear that. But how do you know a vest would have made no difference? I wear a vest, and people have told me that they can see me better. I ride on the motorway, and often drive a cage on the motorway, and perve at bikes, and the ones wearing hi-vis are much more visible. (Funnily enough.) Riders who wear all black do look a little threatening, that is true, at least they do when they are stopped at the lights or cruising slowly through town or in slow traffic, but at high speeds on the motorway they are just a black blob that blends in. Even if my vest is just a flash out of the corner of their eye, it just might make a difference. I'm prepared to be 'gay' if it increases MY odds even a little. And the yellow shows up more than the orange, unless the orange ones I've seen are dirty.

[Ixion]

You are correct in thinking that the yellow/lime is more visible than the orange. I conducted my own trial. Our house overlooks the immediate neighbourhood. I stationed a watcher at a vantage point, whilst I rode out of sight, and back by a route that would bring me progressively closer (and more conspicuous) to the house, whilst wearing variously yellow vest, red vest, and no vest (in random order). My watcher noted in each case the point at which she first noticed me amidst the traffic. I repeated the test 6 times for each colour (18 in all). The results conclusively showed that the yellow vest was detected earlier than the red , which was noticed sooner than no vest.

I think though that I may distinguish between visibility and registration. It is possible for something to be physically visible and yet the viewer does not register its presence. This is the classic situation of making eye contact with someone who then proceeds to pull out in front of you. He SAW you but did not register your presence. His eyes were working, not his brain. I do not think that hi-vis gear helps with this. No matter how bright you are he will not "see" you.

But a motorcycle is a small object. Sometimes other motorists simply , genuinely do not see us. I think the Hi vis gear helps with this. We are more VISIBLE , for anyone whose brain is in gear.

And, all said, my position is that the vests cost very little (free, in my case). And there is no downside to wearing them (apart from the nonsensical "they're ghey" argument, which I ignore as being pointless). So , even if it makes very little difference, there is evidence that it may make SOME difference, for an insignifcant cost. So why NOT do it?

[crashe]

PS Will, I live in Auckland and cannot recall any "Lookout for Bikes" signs on the motorway onramps. Do you have any measurements to show how effective these were? Can something more effective than a billboard be done to ensure driver education?

They have been up all over but not on every ON RAMP.
They are put up every so often. So they are up for a week or so and then the merge like a zip sign goes back up....

The signs are usual size...... 2.4 X 1.8

In fact you will see them as bumper stickers on the back of some cars as well.

Seen them at:
Royal Rd on ramp
Western Springs on ramp
Manukau off ramp
Devonport off ramp

Plus lots of other places.



Edit: I prefer the LIME vests over the orange ones as well..
with the fluresant "H" strips on them

[sunhuntin]

That is a bummer about your accident, sorry to hear that. But how do you know a vest would have made no difference? I wear a vest, and people have told me that they can see me better. I ride on the motorway, and often drive a cage on the motorway, and perve at bikes, and the ones wearing hi-vis are much more visible. (Funnily enough.) Riders who wear all black do look a little threatening, that is true, at least they do when they are stopped at the lights or cruising slowly through town or in slow traffic, but at high speeds on the motorway they are just a black blob that blends in. Even if my vest is just a flash out of the corner of their eye, it just might make a difference. I'm prepared to be 'gay' if it increases MY odds even a little. And the yellow shows up more than the orange, unless the orange ones I've seen are dirty.

lucy...i had my headlight on, and bare arms. ive worked out that no jacket and open faced lid makes me appear more "human" than a shapeless form on a bike that is often considered "alien-like" and unimportant. if she cant see that, then she wouldnt have seen a vest. ive started riding with my light on full, and have had no complaints from car drivers [lights flashing etc] but have had several cars stop and take a second look whereas they might otherwise have pulled out.

[MattRSK]

Fuck the Safety Nazis.

I agree. 100%.

[Lucy]

Bare arms? Surely the weather in Wanganui isn't that bad that it makes skin a safety item lol! Nah but yeah but nah you're right in that if it's gonna happen it's gonna happen. Like the people who don't even see the trains on the track, if their brain is off it's off.

[Big Dog]

They have been up all over but not on every ON RAMP.
They are put up every so often. So they are up for a week or so and then the merge like a zip sign goes back up....

The signs are usual size...... 2.4 X 1.8

In fact you will see them as bumper stickers on the back of some cars as well.

Seen them at:
Royal Rd on ramp
Western Springs on ramp
Manukau off ramp
Devonport off ramp

Plus lots of other places.



Edit: I prefer the LIME vests over the orange ones as well..
with the fluresant "H" strips on them

Aggreed, the orange ones vanish when riding "out of the sun". That and there is a Lime green one that a passing aquiantance had, said he got it off a fishing trawler.
storm collar, waterproof, double breasted (with several differnt zip choices to accomodate your different chest size with different seasons) and has big pockets. You find one and I will buy it and leave it on my jacket as a permanant overcoat.

Those thin ones suck and are often less visible in low light or after dark.
That said I wore one all the time as a noob. On the 250's they made a world of difference but became hazard in that ignorant bikers see fit to haze the 250 rider on an L with a fluro vest.

As a daily rider in the onslaught they call auckland the only reason I don't have one is I have yet to locate a suitable one and disagree that a bad one is better than none.

I commend the ACC for trying no matter how kackhanded their attempt.


To any noobs still reading at this point:

Don't ever let anyone tell you to compromise your saftey because its "ghey".
If you feel safer with one on show your inner strength and individuality and wear it.
If it ever actually saves you you will never know (same as with the headlight on).

If after a while you still feel it is not neccessary decide such for your self.

If your reading this and want to criticise wearers
Get your hand out of your pants, you narrowminded git!

If your reading this and slander the vest
At least try it before you knock it.

[Balding Eagle]

I have a bright yellow vest and wear it all the time. Personally I couldn't give a s**t if anyone thinks I'm "ghey" (crap spelling by that person). I have a strong enough personality to not be concerned by the misinterpretations of those who choose to think along stereotypical lines.

I have not had an accident yet on my bike but have not been riding long enough for this to be taken as part of a valid statistic. Do they prevent accidents? I suspect they do but there is insufficient science being used in the surveys to date to determine this for a fact. I certainly believe that I am more visible. You can not change the fact that some cage drivers' brains are not always in gear. That is why cars hit cars far more than they hit bikes. I shall continue to make myself as conspicuous as possible to minimise the possibility of an accident. I can't do much else. But what I always do is put on my full riding gear, top to bottom, and I will NEVER ride in jeans and a T-shirt so that IF, regretably, I am in an accident, I will have the best possible chance of survival and coming out unscathed.

As for expecting bare white arms to improve visibility - that's a new one on me.

[MacD]

There's something else about the all-black gears. There is a full shape of a human being all one colour (black).

What do the army use when they don't want to be seen? They break up the patterns so that a soldier doesn't have a distinct outline and consistent colour (ie camouflage or DPM's).

Wearing all these different colour bits and pieces of biking gear might actually be counter-productive.

There has been some research done on this in the UK. I have the reference at work so I'll edit it in later.

In urban environments with background clutter, black gear with the headlight on was one of the more visible combinations as it provided a high contrast target. Multicoloured riding gear was less visible and the conclusion was that the broken patterns did indeed act as camouflague.

In a rural environment, coloured and patterned gear was more visible, as it stood out against the general green background.

The two most important cues for recognition (seeing as well as looking) for motorcyclists appear to be contrast and movement, colour would come third. Also you are essentially colour-blind in your peripheral vision so movement (including flicker - hence modulated lights) is the most useful tool you have to alert a driver who is not looking directly at you to your presence. The trick is to move laterally in your lane, the movement towards is too small a stimulus (rate at which visual angle is changing as you approach).

Yellow-green vests appear most visible as that colour matches the peak of the photopic sensitivity curve which is around 555nm. It also explains why those people on the Blue-blocker sunglasses ad's used to make such a fuss about how good they were (that and they were Americans enjoying their 15s on TV )

[Lucy]

Lol, movement - maybe it's my 'L' plate wobble that helps them see me, not the vest after all! I'll let you know if things change when I get better and smoother as a rider.

I agree that the multi coloured jackets are not very good for standing out in the cluttered environment, but comparing them to high - vis is like comparing apples and orangutans. (One is cool and expensive, one is 'ghey' lol)

Big Dog check out one of the safety shops (the ones that sell stop/go signs etc). A while ago I saw some meaty looking jackets in one of those that had flouro on the back.

I still reckon having the headlight on makes a difference too. Even though lots of cars do now too, those cars also stick out more, I don't think it makes the bikes stick out less.

[sunhuntin]

*snip*

possibility of an accident. I can't do much else. But what I always do is put on my full riding gear, top to bottom, and I will NEVER ride in jeans and a T-shirt so that IF, regretably, I am in an accident, I will have the best possible chance of survival and coming out unscathed.

As for expecting bare white arms to improve visibility - that's a new one on me.

funny thing is, eagle, as pointed out in my post above, my upper body was not covered other than a singlet and some tattoos. my upper body came off 100% ok [aside from a nick out of my thumb] i landed on my back. my left leg, knee down, is numb and ugly to look at. my right knee is stuffed from the tank hug and hates being kneeled on. my boots were cowboy boots, and definately saved my ankle from being destroyed. im still trying to work out why my back and arms were left unmarked. i dont think i even bruised.
and i never expected having arms etc visible to help, but i beleive it does help remind car drivers that we are actually human.

pics of my battle scars here: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v2...oct%2026%2005/

[Street Gerbil]

IMO if someone manages not to notice a 90kg dude on a big red bike with a loud can, chances are he is not going to notice the vest either. Let's see if a 139dB stebel horn will improve my "noticeability".