Cheesecutter campaign

[DEATH_INC.]

These barriers can kill/maim anyone. Bad riding generally only harms those doing it. OK?
Are you suggesting we give up and take whatever shit the cheapest roading contractor puts on our roads?
Your armco concerns are also noted, it is these that they are retrofitting the 'mototub' to...

[DEATH_INC.]

I do have a question for YOU....can you tell me how many people have been killed by concrete barriers? (serious question, not winding you up)

[Mom]

Not a problem. When the first Brifen (WRSB for non industry people) were installed years and years ago, the question of their safety was looked at, and an international literature search done. Based upon this, the thicker (Brifen) type was adopted, as it was acknowleged that the wire rope, the 'cheesecutter" part if you insist on calling in that, was not really a hazard, rather it was the posts that any non-concrete barrier system require that would harm errant motorcyclists.

It was also acknowleged that the thicker cables were safer than the thinner ones installed in Europe.

Common sense dictates that if concrete barriers were the be-all and end all that they`d be everywhere - strangely they are not. They have their own special issues with regard to being struck by motorists.

I dont expect to change anyones mind, i`m not that naive - just thought i`d put my 2c in.

If you are going to use jargon, can you please expand it so us non industry types know what you are on about. I assume WRSB means Wire Rope Saftey Barrier?

Sorry for cutting your quote short, but I did not want to take any more server space than I needed to. Your answer is informative and very interesting. How then do you answer the following.

Harry Dynhoven was asked this question last year:

"3/. How many kms, if any, of Brifen safety barriers are currently in place on NZs road network?"

His answer,

"3. Brifen is a proprietary name for a wire rope barrier system used on state highways. There are a number of other systems in use including Safefence, and public domain systems. TNZ advise me that there is at present 127kms of Brifen brand wire rope barriers installed on NZs state highway network"

So officially we have just 127kms of Brifen barriers on NZ State Higways.

I am currently awaiting his answer to how many actual kms of "other" types of WRMB's (Wire Rope Median Barriers) there are.

You have not answered my question though. Why did you specify the Brifen type barrier in your questions?

[Ixion]

And save motorists, law abiding or otherwise...

Shall we replace them with W-section or Thrie beam (Armco) as these also have posts which will kill / maim you? Or let you slide over the cliff that the barrier is protecting you from? Into head-on traffic? I mean it`s your choice to do all those things...

More likely to kill you (statistically speaking) are crashing due to excessive speed on a corner, dangerous overtaking, riding while impaired. I ride - the barriers dont concern me in the slightest - no more than all the other roadside hazards that you conveniently ignore.

Your concern for your fellow motorists is touching.

The other types of barrier are nasty. But their design is not as nasty as the cheesecutter, which not only adds its own specialty, the guillotine ropes, but also is designed so that it will directly steer a motorcycle straight into the posts. The other type you slide along

I'd obviously prefer none at all. What sort of stupid question is that ?

Going over a cliff is survivable. The cheesecutter is not. And in 50 years riding I have encountered a potential head on a total of three times . In every case it was easy enough to avoid.

As to those things more like to kill me, statistically they may. But I make it my business to ride in such a way that I do not overtake dangerously , or ride impaired or at excessive speed, I trust they will not. At any rate , that is down to me. I can control it.

The cheesecutter is NOT down to me, and I cannot control it. To hit it (whether as a result of mechanical failure such as a tyre burst, or from being pushed into it) is certain , horrible death.

Nothing else on the roads is as certainly deadly as the cheesecutter.

[Mom]

P.S I know the answers to these questions...

Broken quote I agree, but while you are thinking up an answer as to why you specifically named Brifen as the barrier we are protesting about, which we are not in any way, shape or form, can you please explain to us what the difference between them (Brifen) and other Wire Rope Barriers are?

[Nikolai_V]

Broken quote I agree, but while you are thinking up an answer as to why you specifically named Brifen as the barrier we are protesting about, which we are not in any way, shape or form, can you please explain to us what the difference between them (Brifen) and other Wire Rope Barriers are?

For the purposes of your campaign, none really. The principle is the same, just differences in terminal (anchor blocks) and wire thickness. Spacing of posts may vary, but its still a barrier - it has to stop vehicles, which it does well.

It is generally used as a reference to the WRSB (colloqially), in formal correspondance its WRSB or similar. No slight was intended to the Brifen company, as you may have guessed from my comments.

[Nikolai_V]

The other types of barrier are nasty. But their design is not as nasty as the cheesecutter, which not only adds its own specialty, the guillotine ropes, but also is designed so that it will directly steer a motorcycle straight into the posts. The other type you slide along

I'd obviously prefer none at all. What sort of stupid question is that ?

Going over a cliff is survivable. The cheesecutter is not. And in 50 years riding I have encountered a potential head on a total of three times . In every case it was easy enough to avoid.

As to those things more like to kill me, statistically they may. But I make it my business to ride in such a way that I do not overtake dangerously , or ride impaired or at excessive speed, I trust they will not. At any rate , that is down to me. I can control it.

The cheesecutter is NOT down to me, and I cannot control it. To hit it (whether as a result of mechanical failure such as a tyre burst, or from being pushed into it) is certain , horrible death.

Nothing else on the roads is as certainly deadly as the cheesecutter.

Interestingly enough, earlier this year a motorcyclist went safely over the to pof a WRSB in Otago - I think it was on SH6... Havent got teh article on me, but it was in the ODT.

Not quite certain death, but then again, losing control of your bike on the Devils Staircase (SH6 between Kingston and Queenstown) and plunging into lake wakitipu would certainly kill you... Id take the barrier myself.


heres a devils advocate question for you - and remember I ride as well...

If motorcycles are fundamentally incompatible with infrastructure designed to keep other motorists safe, and providing for their safety would have to be at the expense of all other road users (which would be a valid conclusion given the commenst on here) - why dont we ban them? I mean they`re not nessecary to teh functioning of the economy - dont carry goods or generate GDP - they just cost the citizen in ACC claims.

as outlandish and provocative as that statement was, I`ll bet you dollars to donuts that I could get 7000 signitures on a petition to that effect (as many as the cheese-cutter campaign).

[MSTRS:Me]

....
as outlandish and provocative as that statement was, I`ll bet you dollars to donuts that I could get 7000 signitures on a petition to that effect (as many as the cheese-cutter campaign).

And I will guarantee you that if we manage to find the finances to take this nationally in a media-carried campaign, rather than talking to people one-on-one, that we will get enough people to see the fatal flaws in the WR(un)SB that you and your precious 'statistical' evidence would cease to have any relevance.

[Nikolai_V]

I do have a question for YOU....can you tell me how many people have been killed by concrete barriers? (serious question, not winding you up)

In the 5 year period 2003-2007 (inclusive) 2 riders were killed as a result of a collision with a guardrail - one WRSB which i`m sure everyone in this thread is aware of, and one with a W section (armco). During this period, 32 other riders were killed as a result of hitting other roadside objects (ditches, trees, banks, going over cliffs), and a total of 174 were killed on the roads in NZ.

I`ve looked at the crash reports of some of the fatals, and stand by my statements - the best way to save the lives of motorcyclists is to adopt a culture which doesnt promote excessive speed, and denies inexperienced motorcyclists vehicles they cannot handle. Common themes are repeated in teh reports, excessive speed, failure to take corner, lost control while turning.

Its nice to have an exterior factor to blame for this carnage, but the truth of the matter is that motorcyclists kill far more motorcyclists than any other factor, be it vehicle or environment.

Every death is tragic, I just feel a sense of proportion is called for here. There havent been any petitions circulated to stop motorcyclists speeding or riding beyond their abilities, but any actions in this direction would save a huge number of lives.

As for concrete vs WRSB vs Armco - the low number of deaths make it pretty iffy drawing any conclusions about their relative merits, especially given that concrete is typically used as median and side rail in motorway situations where crash rates are lower anyway, whilst the other types are found on local roads, typically in black spot locations or corners.

Lookng at stats for all road users, in terms of fatal crashes and object struck, only 5% of MC fatals involve Guard rail, as opposed to 50% for other vehicle types - obviously this is only looking at a small proportion of all crashes though, but it raises some interesting points. It would seem that GR is actually more dangerous for drivers than riders, given the numbers.

Of course these ignore all the non-injury and minor/serious injury crashes which were made less severe by the action of the rail.

As i`ve said, i`m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just think that the big picture view is worth considering. Maybe we should as riders be asking ourselves why, when say 35 of us are getting killed each year on the roads, we are focussing all our attention onto 5%?

[MSTRS:Me]

There havent been any petitions circulated to stop motorcyclists speeding or riding beyond their abilities, but any actions in this direction would save a huge number of lives.

Personal responsibility? And the laws pertaining to operating a vehicle?
Step outside those, and the stepper is asking for some form of trouble for sure.

As for concrete vs WRSB vs Armco - the low number of deaths make it pretty iffy drawing any conclusions about their relative merits, especially given that concrete is typically used as median and side rail in motorway situations where crash rates are lower anyway, whilst the other types are found on local roads, typically in black spot locations or corners.

True. In NZ the sample is small...but there's a whole world out there that have gone through what we are. There is a reason that some countries have opted to replace or retrofit barriers to make them more biker friendly.

Lookng at stats for all road users, in terms of fatal crashes and object struck, only 5% of MC fatals involve Guard rail, as opposed to 50% for other vehicle types - obviously this is only looking at a small proportion of all crashes though, but it raises some interesting points. It would seem that GR is actually more dangerous for drivers than riders, given the numbers.

All this 'proves' is that motorcyclists very rarely hit a median barrier?? Perhaps we pay more attention to what we are doing?

I hear what you are trying say, BUT, and it is a big but, a barrier that is effectively a row of vertical knives, joined by a steel cable to ensure there is no passing between the blades, is never going to be safe for any motorcyclist that hits it for any reason.

[sunhuntin]

oh ffs, katman in disguise.

ok, how many riders have died, in the years you state, due to accidents not caused by them? how many were rear ended, cut off, under passed and forced into the wrong lanes? how many of those were l plate riders, still getting their head around things, who were tail gated and forced into a situation they werent prepared for? do your stats include scooter riders?

im not saying every rider is fault free, cos thats damn impossible, but, trying to say every accident is the fault of the rider is also bullshit.

btw, ive ridden SH6, and its as safe as any other road down there. id actually state the road to cardrona is more tricky, specially the start of it with the switch backs. and id say the road from wanganui to national park is worse still.

[Katman]

I'm afraid that post is filled with way too much logic Nikolai. This lot don't do logic.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'm afraid that post is filled with way too much logic Nikolai. This lot don't do logic.

Not your kind of logic anyway

[imdying]

I hear what you are trying say, BUT, and it is a big but, a barrier that is effectively a row of vertical knives, joined by a steel cable to ensure there is no passing between the blades, is never going to be safe for any motorcyclist that hits it for any reason.

In that case, a power pole is effectively like a big base ball bat... no passing through that, only a 100km/h swing through...

I like the amount of effort that goes into the WRB campaign, but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't, seems that all that effort would be better directed at things that are actually known to have a history of killing and/or maiming bikes in NZ.

[MSTRS:Me]

In that case, a power pole is effectively like a big base ball bat... no passing through that, only a 100km/h swing through...

I like the amount of effort that goes into the WRB campaign, but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't, seems that all that effort would be better directed at things that are actually known to have a history of killing and/or maiming bikes in NZ.

Total garbage. And offensive too.
True that a pole is a giant bat, but...
Power pole - 100m - power pole - 100m - power pole...repeat. Plenty of space between and no cables to stop/redirect 'you'.
WRB post - 1.5/3.5m - post - 1.5/3.5m - post...repeat. Tiny gap and a cable to deny access AND redirect 'you' into a post.
And you were there on the night Daniel died? So you know with your own eyes what happened?