Cheesecutter campaign

[Nikolai_V]

Nice to see some reasoned debate... With regard to the target fixation issue, its worth noting that of the 34 rider deaths attributable to "struck object" only 2 were barriers (there was a bridge death which i discounted), meaning the remainder were (and i`m looking at a printout from CAS as i type) Parked vehicles (3), Ditches (6), Traffic Islands (3), Fences (9), Over bank (2), Traffic Signs (1), Posts / Poles (5), Trains (1), Bridges (1) or other. The numbers might not add up as a) i`m in a hurry and b) there are often more than one object struck.

TF is a very real issue, unlike others, and yes training in this area would save lives. As roading engineers we activley persue clear-zoning (removing hazards from the road sides to provide a safe recoverable zone). Where this cannot be achieved, barriers are typically installed. This is in line with international best practise.

I`m not going to comment on the causes of crashes beyond what has been said already - road deaths are a highly emotive topic, and I don`t see any merit in speculation regarding driver behaviour post-accidnent in this forum.

I have seen the police crash reports and witness statements for many, many fatal accidents (and have signed appropriate confidentiality agreements to do so), and it is not atypical for witness statements to differ from the truth. As an engineer, it is possible to arrive at a reasonable conclusion from examining the site, photos and diagrams.

ok, how many riders have died, in the years you state, due to accidents not caused by them? how many were rear ended, cut off, under passed and forced into the wrong lanes? how many of those were l plate riders, still getting their head around things, who were tail gated and forced into a situation they werent prepared for? do your stats include scooter riders?

The generally accepted figure for multi-vehicle accidents for motorcyclists is 50:50, in terms of fault. However a hell of a lot of MC crashes are single vehicle loss of control which are generally all the riders fault. (I can check this in CAS, but i`m fairly certain on this). And no scooters (mopeds in teh eyes of the law) are not included but as they shouldn`t be on open roads where barrier systems are generally found I cant imagine they`d figure in stats. I`d hazard an educated guess that they`d be overrepresented in multi-vehicle collisions, through their greater exposure to traffic, (typically) less experienced riders and lower visibility.

im not saying every rider is fault free, cos thats damn impossible, but, trying to say every accident is the fault of the rider is also bullshit.

I didnt say that, but motorcyclists do have more crashes as a result of breaching traffic regulations (i.e. speed limits) than other vehicle types - from this you could safely conclude that motorcyclists are generally less risk adverse than other motorists, and accordingly die in greater numbers...

btw, ive ridden SH6, and its as safe as any other road down there. id actually state the road to cardrona is more tricky, specially the start of it with the switch backs. and id say the road from wanganui to national park is worse still.

Not being patronising (well a little bit), but i`m glad that in your laymans eyes SH6 is safe. The road to cardrona? I`m guessing you mean the crown range road which isnt a State highway, and is built to a lower standard (has a much higher crash rate too).

I`m not sure what that comparison is meant to show? I know that QLDC have less money availabe for safety than Transit - If they had the oppurtunity there`d be barriers for africa on the first section (which incidentally is being widened at present), much like at the stretch from the gate to the summit.

[Mom]

Good luck in the big wide world of target fixation... heck a TF campaign would save actual lives amongst the motorcycles of NZ imho. Tangible results, them I like

I like this idea very much, sadly no time to do anything about it at the moment. PM Ixion for the address for BRONZ. This is right up their alley, bringing safety issues to people that count. They have all the contacts. Write to BRONZ and ask them to put a case to ACC to work up a campaign on target fixation for delivering to the people.

I am not being sarcastic here either, Ixion is your man to start this safety ball rolling. Good call!

[RiderInBlack]

IMHO Any Safety Barrier put there for the safety of road users should do just that. It does not matter whether the road user was following the rules of the road or not, if it is put there to increase safety it should. It should not increase the risk of fataliy or serious injury. IMHO the wire barriers do, especial for motorcyclist. End of story. They need to be replaced with better designed barriers that are made taking all road users in mind. IMHO this goes for any safety barrier.

[Dakara]

IMHO Any Safety Barrier put there for the safety of road users should do just that. It does not matter whether the road user was following the rules of the road or not, if it is put there to increase safety it should. It should not increase the risk of fataliy or serious injury. IMHO the wire barriers do, especial for motorcyclist. End of story. They need to be replaced with better designed barriers that are made taking all road users in mind. IMHO this goes for any safety barrier.

Not only for bikes....

I'm sure everyone has seen this, but a reminder from Cheesecutter.co.nz

[Nikolai_V]

To assume someone is lying as it's the stereotypical response to an accident is rather close-minded.

I'm not saying they were telling the truth, I have no clue. But I can imagine you wouldn't be too happy if you found yourself in an accident, not at fault, but had the blame put on you under the assumption that because your a biker you must of been fucking around.

I certainly didnt try and put any blame on anyone in THAT crash, in fact I`ve studiously avoided commenting on it, and I am have seen a lot of the information pertaining to it...

But back on topic.

All the previous posts about statistics really are a crock. The great thing about statistics is you can manipulate them to show whatever you want depending on how they are presented.

"Far more Bikers are killed from ignoring the law, blah blah blah"

Of course, we all know that. What you need to do is look at the relevant statistics. Don't compare # of Cheesecutter deaths to Concrete barriers. That's a Biased sample, as there are different quantities, in differen't areas/locations. What you need to look at is the mortality rate, or casualty rate of each.

Take the number of bikers to hit a concrete barrier over say a 5 year period.

How many of them died?

How many of those deaths were a result of hitting the barrier? And put that into a percentage.

So X% of bikers to hit a concrete barrier died as a direct result of hitting the barrier

Then do the same for the cheesecutter barriers (Y%) (and others)

Then compare X and Y. (very simplistic overview, but I gave up Stats after Bursary )

Easy - in the 5 year perion 2003 - 2007 (inclusive) there were 90 motorcycle crashes (reported) involving Guardrails. Of these 3 were fatal - one was someone riding into teh rail of a bridge so I kind of discount this as a darwin award candidate rather than blaming the rail (no rail and hed have drowned so...)

A further 30 were listed as serious (in terms of injuries, 42 were minor and 15 were non-injury. You can work out the percentages...

There's a famous quote most people should know, (I forget who said it). If one person dies it's a tragedy, if 1,000,000 people die it's a statistic. The point in the Cheesecutter campaign is to avoid further tragedies, thus creating another statistic.[/QUOTE]

It was Joseph Stalin.

[Mom]

but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't,

On the night in question his frame broke in two and I figure there's a damn good chance that that happened from landing a wheelstand.

Ok I will be the voice of reason here. I address this to you both and to anyone else reading this thread.

Daniel Evans was killed as a result injuries he sustained hitting a WRSB (cheesecutter). Full stop, the end.

The reasons for him coming into contact with that cheesecutter are still being investigated and the coroner is still to make a finding on the accident.

There are any number of rumours floating around, trust me I think I may have heard them all.

This case is not closed at all, how about we all wait to hear what the official reason was for the accident happening, before spouting off your "Chinese Whispered" version of events?

Daniels death may have been the catalyst for this current campaign, but this issue has been around for many years, I remember writing letters back when the very first of these motorcyclist killers were installed on the northern motorway extension from, if I remember correctly Tristram Ave, Auckland, northbound.

[Mom]

But back on topic.

You seem to have a lot of statistical data regarding these cheesecutter/barriers at your finger tips mate. What exactly do you do for a job again?

[MSTRS:Me]

Nice to see some reasoned debate...

There has been plenty of reasoned 'debate', as you put it, all through these threads. The fact that it surrounds an emotive issue needs to be taken into account too.
And no matter what you say, we do know that we die when we hit things. The idea is to NOT hit things. But your Transit organisation insists on putting things for us to hit in places where it is highly likely that we will (outside on righthand bends). And the things that we hit that are most likely to kill us are the ones with the greatest psi at point of 'touch'. Obviously it depends on the angle of strike, but a smooth solid surface is streets ahead of a small section post everytime.
And is it too hard for you to understand that when our escape routes left and right are compromised, we are going to be a tad....upset ??

[Mom]

is it too hard for you to understand that when our escape routes left and right are compromised, we are going to be a tad....upset ??

The Dome Valley north of Warkworth is a classic example of this. If I meet a car that has crossed the centre lane and heading directly towards me I have 2 choices. Head on into the car, or sideways into a cheesecutter!

Of course the fact that Transit have reduced the speed limit through there to 80km/ph to improve safety, has to be factored into the equation, guess I will be looking at limbs severed hitting the cheesecutter, rather than instant death at 100km/ph. Or I could always take my chances flying over the car that I hit.

[Ixion]

Interestingly enough, earlier this year a motorcyclist went safely over the to pof a WRSB in Otago - I think it was on SH6... Havent got teh article on me, but it was in the ODT.

So they don't stop you going over the cliff anyway.

heres a devils advocate question for you - and remember I ride as well...

If motorcycles are fundamentally incompatible with infrastructure designed to keep other motorists safe, and providing for their safety would have to be at the expense of all other road users (which would be a valid conclusion given the commenst on here) - why dont we ban them? I mean they`re not nessecary to teh functioning of the economy - dont carry goods or generate GDP - they just cost the citizen in ACC claims.

as outlandish and provocative as that statement was, I`ll bet you dollars to donuts that I could get 7000 signitures on a petition to that effect (as many as the cheese-cutter campaign).

Flawewd argument. Motorcycles are not incompatible with PROPERLY ENGINEERED infrastructure.

Why not argue that bridges should be built to take a maximum load of one tonne. That should be fine for bikes (OK, von Klunken will have to wait until no-one else is around). Could kill a few car drivers though. So obviously cars are incompatible with infrastructure. Ban them

The whole complaint about the cheesecutters is that Transit have failed to design them properly. Any road item, but particulalry a purported safety measure shoudl be designed to take the requirements of ALL road users into account. WRBs design deliberately ignores that needs of some road users and puts them into danger.

A number of measures which could make the WRBs safe or safer for motorcycles have been proposed to Transit. Many of them are endorsed by overseas authorities. Transit have ignored them all.

So the issue is not that WRBs (or any other barier) are incompatible with motorcycles. It is that Transit are deliberately, through inadequate design standards, designing danger into our roads.

Arguments about speeding, drunk riding and the like are a total red herring. They amount to a statement that "Yes, we are deliberately and unnecessarily building dangerous roads. But it serves you right because you are all speeding drunken riders, so you deserve to die".

If WRBs ONLY killed riders who were speeding , or riding drunk, I would be less critical of them. That is not the case.

You may note that most of the noise about WRBs is coming from riders of many years experience (some of whom I suspect have been riding for more years than you have been alive). They are concerned because they realise that , almost uniquely, the WRB is a potentially fatal hazard that no amount of care, prudence , skill or experience can avert. That will kill a rider who is riding legally, responsibly and cautiously. And which, unlike some other unavoidable hazrds is placed there quite deliberately by people who are tasked and paid to make our roads safer, not less safe.

There are plenty of people on the roads who endanger me, unpaid. I object to having an organisation which I help fund endanger me, and then argue that I should not object because I am probably speeding or drunk.

[Ixion]

You seem to have a lot of statistical data regarding these cheesecutter/barriers at your finger tips mate. What exactly do you do for a job again?

He works for Transit. (And in fairness, has been a helpful resource on some other issues)

[Dakara]

I certainly didnt try and put any blame on anyone in THAT crash, in fact I`ve studiously avoided commenting on it, and I am have seen a lot of the information pertaining to it...

But back on topic.



Easy - in the 5 year perion 2003 - 2007 (inclusive) there were 90 motorcycle crashes (reported) involving Guardrails. Of these 3 were fatal - one was someone riding into teh rail of a bridge so I kind of discount this as a darwin award candidate rather than blaming the rail (no rail and hed have drowned so...)

A further 30 were listed as serious (in terms of injuries, 42 were minor and 15 were non-injury. You can work out the percentages...

There's a famous quote most people should know, (I forget who said it). If one person dies it's a tragedy, if 1,000,000 people die it's a statistic. The point in the Cheesecutter campaign is to avoid further tragedies, thus creating another statistic.

It was Joseph Stalin.

Oh that initial comment wasn't directed at you, was towards a previous poster who made a rather disrespectful comment.

Anyway, I'm no statistician, but to compare the stats you just gave me, one would need to separate the Wire barrier accidents from the Concrete ones, apply a correction to compensate for their being more of one type than the other, thus giving a fair and unbiased result (unbiased mathematically not personally).

As you said earlier, it is a "Perceived Hazard" which is partially true. But all Hazards are Perceived until disaster strikes, and the more hazards we can perceive and correct without loss of life the better.

On a personal note, I would rather take my chances with a solid barrier than a posted one (wire or otherwise). Hitting a post is like hitting a power-pole, game over and we all know the risk associated with the wires. The concrete ones however, have the advantage that if we survive the initial impact, and are not driven over by the vehicles behind us, we can slide along the barrier gradually slowing down to a stop. Opposed to catching a limb or other extremity.

Oh and thanks, yes Stalin was who I was thinking of.

[Ixion]

..? I mean they`re not nessecary to teh functioning of the economy - dont carry goods or generate GDP - they just cost the citizen in ACC claims.

..

Nor do cars. Should we ban them too? Efficient personal transport is a part of GDP generation.

[RiderInBlack]

Daniels death may have been the catalyst for this current campaign, but this issue has been around for many years

Yep, can trace posts relating ta Cheesecutters/Wire Rope Barriers on KB dating as far back 2003 (which is when KB started). Do we really need more deaths relating to WRB before they wake up and take all road users in account before installing safety barriers?

[Ixion]

I argued with Transit about them in 2004 (a Mr Flanagan, I think ?). Their rebuttal argument then was "No one has been killed by them, so what's the problem? " .

Now it is "Only one person has been killed by them , so whats the problem ?"

How many deaths DO Transit require before admitting there's a problem ?