Top cop says bikers are incompetant and pissed

**Usarka** · 6th December 2007, 07:53

While i agree with what you say Quasi, I'd hazard a guess that most of the riders you are describing aren't the ones the cop is refering to....

Mr Tooman is ...worried about a series of motorcycle crashes. He says a large number of "born-again" motorcyclists are coming down from Auckland to cruise Coromandel and Waikato roads.

Mr Tooman says technology has moved on a bit since they last rode. He says that, coupled with stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster

My observations is that most of the riders you describe are 20's- 30's males.

I think also that part of the reaction was that this came out after a bad weekend of crashes and fatalities of which there is little evidence that a) the riders were at fault, and b) they were of the type he described.

A week later and he may have got a different reaction....

**scumdog** · 6th December 2007, 08:15

Originally Posted by Quasievil

Many KBrs as well as other bikers need to pull their heads in when riding on the road, thats a fact.
I personally dont ride on KB group rides for the mere reason that many of you are dangerous and stupid within these rides and I dont want to be part of it, dont get me wrong, I think that 90% of KBrs are very good riders and very capable motorcyclists, but there would be at least 10% of you that havent got a fucking clue how to ride safely.

Maybe it's a locality thing Quasi but so far all the KB group rides I've been on are OK - riders well spaced, no 'clowning', no egos, slowing down/turning indicated in tons of time and always very aware of the less-experienced riders abilities
And in case some think we're all old fart some of the group are barely in their 20s' (no teenagers though).

Sure, shit happens, always has but I get the impression a lot seems to be 'self-inflicted shit'.

**jrandom** · 6th December 2007, 08:31

Originally Posted by scumdog

Maybe it's a locality thing Quasi but so far all the KB group rides I've been on are OK - riders well spaced, no 'clowning', no egos...

I'm guessing you haven't been on any 'sportbike swarm' rides full of young guys on ZXCBYRZGFSXRRRRRs, though.

In all fairness, I get the impression that the attitude on the Auckland and Waikato KB rides has improved over the past year. I hope that my impression is accurate.

**Ixion** · 6th December 2007, 09:02

Originally Posted by Quasievil

h

Fact is (and it is a fact) that every weekend there is shitloads of bikers coming down from Auckland onto waikato roads and shitloads of them crash
yes ....................shitloads, why is that?
here you go here are the reasons
1/ bigger egos than your skill set
2/ Bikes more capable than your riding skills
3/ Stupid dum behaviour by the riders
4/ Riders CONSTANTLY thinking the roads are race tracks
5/ The Riders that do stop and have a beer then most of the above gets inflated

He stated some facts born from data he gets on his desk, and has enough data to make such a comment, he didnt pull it out of his arse.

I suggest that you all consider that actually motorcylists are essentially responsible for there own demise and that Mr tooman and the police in general have every right to be concerned and they definately should be targeting bikers with some attention.

The reasons you give are quite different from those given by Mr Tooman. I am only concerned with Mr Tooman's coments, because they are made by him , in an official capacity, in the public media.

He alleges :

That motorcycles crashes in the Waikato are caused by Auckland riders
That they are caused by Born Again Bikers who cannot handle the modern technology of their bikes
That they have because the riders have been drinking beer in cafes.

Now , as to the statement that he has data for these allegations. Well, he certainly cannot have data to suppoort his claim that the crashes are caused by BABs. Because there is no definition of what a BAB is, and certainly no tick box for it on the crash reports. So that is pure speculation on his part.

He may have data to support his claim that the problem is entirely caused by Auckland riders, but I will remain very sceptical till I see a reference to that data. It seems very improbable that NONE of the Waikato crashes were locals.

He may also have data to support his claim that the crashes were caused by intoxication. But I remain sceptical on that also, certainly if he is claiming (as he implies0 that the riders were over the legal limit.

That there is a (small) percentage of riders who ride unsafely cannot be denied . Just as a small percentage of cagers drive unsafely . And I have always been one of the first to condemn such unsafe behaviour. But those riders and behaviours are NOT those which we (and you ) condemn . Mr Tooman has not condemned any of the crash causing behaviours which you list. Nor have you listed any of his ,apart from the drinking.

I do not know of ANY KB rider who has crashed in the Waikato whilst drunk. Let alone a BAB who has crashed drunk, let alone a drunk Auckland BAB who crashed because the technology of his bike was too much for him. Do you know of any such crash ? Nor have ANY of the lamentable KB deaths fitted such a demographic. Yet Mr Tooman says that all the Waikato motorcycle crashes are caused by these drunken Auckland technologicaly challenged BABs. You ascribe them to quite different causes. So if one of you is right the other must be wrong (or both are wrong of course)

Perjorative statements such as Mr Tooman's which savour far more of emotive witchhunting than reasoned analysis are unhelpful and put all motorcyclists in a bad light.

It is important that when such claims are made by thos ein authority they are challenged to prove them. Because otherwise the public will accept them as fact and form the basis for yet another official withhunt.

As to the point that Mr Tooman may have been misquoted - this is quite possible, but in that case it is up to him to correct the errant publication. We cannot do it for him. If he remains silent we must assume that he is content that he was correctly reported.

EDIT:
Some actual data.

Motorcycle crashes in the Waikato and Thames/Coromandel regions

2006 Waikato 16 (1 fatal) Coromandel 10 (1 fatal) total 26
2005 ........... 9 ..1...........................9 0 ...................8
2004 ............15..0...........................7 0 ...................22

I don't know if those constitute a "shitload". But I would be willing to put money that they were not all drunken Auckland BABs who couldn't cope with their bikes.

**Jantar** · 6th December 2007, 09:04

Originally Posted by scumdog

Maybe it's a locality thing Quasi but so far all the KB group rides I've been on are OK - riders well spaced, no 'clowning', no egos, slowing down/turning indicated in tons of time and always very aware of the less-experienced riders abilities
And in case some think we're all old fart some of the group are barely in their 20s' (no teenagers though).

Originally Posted by jrandom

I'm guessing you haven't been on any 'sportbike swarm' rides full of young guys on ZXCBYRZGFSXRRRRRs, though.

We tend to get a real mix of bikes on Otago rides. Its not unusual to find cruisers, commuters, sports bikes and adventure bikes all out together. Then on the ocassions that we are fortunate enough to meet up with the Canterbury crowd with Guzzies and Buells thrown in as well, the rides are just the same, enjoyable.

Maybe its because riders down south don't have anything to prove, we enjoy each others company, and our great roads.

**Ixion** · 6th December 2007, 09:08

Originally Posted by jrandom

I'm guessing you haven't been on any 'sportbike swarm' rides full of young guys on ZXCBYRZGFSXRRRRRs, though.

In all fairness, I get the impression that the attitude on the Auckland and Waikato KB rides has improved over the past year. I hope that my impression is accurate.

Hold on. How can "young guys" be Born Again Bikers ? It's a contraiction in terms.

**jrandom** · 6th December 2007, 09:12

Originally Posted by Ixion

Hold on. How can "young guys" be Born Again Bikers ? It's a contraiction in terms.

I agree wholeheartedly with your points in regard to Mr Tooman's statements being so much unjustified blather. I wasn't addressing them directly.

Then again, I myself did a bit of a BAB earlier this year. Two years out of the saddle, followed by a GSX-R750 and then, three weeks later, a highside and a broken thumb.

**idb** · 6th December 2007, 09:20

Originally Posted by spudchucka

Sort of like how all cops became rapists once a complaint was made against a top ranking cop?

I just find it odd that you all have to have another man present when you have sex.

**Bass** · 6th December 2007, 09:35

Originally Posted by Ixion

EDIT:
Some actual data.

Motorcycle crashes in the Waikato and Thames/Coromandel regions

2006 Waikato 16 (1 fatal) Coromandel 10 (1 fatal) total 26
2005 ........... 9 ..1...........................9 0 ...................8
2004 ............15..0...........................7 0 ...................22

I don't know if those constitute a "shitload". But I would be willing to put money that they were not all drunken Auckland BABs who couldn't cope with their bikes.

While I don't entirely agree with some of your logic, you do make some sound points.
One question - what sort of accidents do your numbers derive from?
Let me clarify that.
I would expect that e.g. 2006 in the Waikato district, there would be many more than 16 accidents if all the minor "offs" where the ploddery were not involved, are taken into account. So does this data derive from injury accidents, police involved accidents or some other qualification?

**Coyote** · 6th December 2007, 09:46

I don't think cops are even that good at catching speeders. They haven't got me since my first month of riding. I had an L plate on so I was easy game. It's been 3 years now to this day that I got my licence. Don't know why everyone complains about them.

**Coyote** · 6th December 2007, 09:51

Also I've crashed a fukton and I shouldn't be on the road. Not that I have ever been counted under their statistics since I always get the trailer home

**spudchucka** · 6th December 2007, 10:16

Originally Posted by idb

I just find it odd that you all have to have another man present when you have sex.

You want me to give you a call next time I get the baton out?

**idb** · 6th December 2007, 10:31

Originally Posted by Hitcher

That happened 30 years ago. We're the left-overs, didn't you know?

So that's where Elvis went!

**idb** · 6th December 2007, 10:33

Originally Posted by Skyryder

That my be, but what about all the God like intoxication. Then there's the coming Rapture, speaking in tongues and the complexities of the sermon just to confuse you even more. Motorcycles can be ridden to church but not back home it's just to dangerouse. Ask Zed he saw the light.

Skyyrder

I don't think we need to get too exorcised about this.