wtf?

[imdying]

What utter bullshit! If the shock factor has no effect (that is, the continuous stream of carnage on TV and fellow KBers dying left, right and centre) doesn't get through to them, I hardly think they're going to change their riding because someone else has "Had an epiphany...".

But if only one life is saved, isn't that enough? I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that it'd never happen.

[madbikeboy]

Shit - how did this get here??? I still had a page open from that other link. I wanted to post this to make the point that most of what I was reading was debate (and general agreement) that there was an issue with our culture within this site.

I think we need free speech and open debate on the topic of safetey and attitude - I don't even want to get into the discussion about the young guy who died, I think it's a terrible thing, and I make no comment on his riding, the circumstance, where (if any) fault lies. I really feel for his family - and I'm a position to understand having little if any family still alive.

It's well documented that if a group fails to moderate itself, then the wider society intervenes and creates rules, laws, penalties. We have a unique chance to change our culture and how we behave. I'm not advocating we all ride cruisers. But, there were a lot of people agreeing with what I wrote, and I've had several PM's from people who say that they won't ride on organised KB rides for the same reasons that I relate below.

I'm aware that posting this is likely to earn me censure, or banning - and I accept that the moderators pulled the discussion for what I believe are the right reasons. But, and it's a big but, we need the discussion of safety and attitude out in the open.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________



Today, 14:03
madbikeboy
Scooter boy

Bike: GSXR1000K2
Location: North Shore
Posts: 54


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMNTD
You'll be happy to know mate that this (and a couple of other recent events) has woken me right up.
To the track for this honky and backing off road riding by a good 90%.
I've been fortunate enough to have been LUCKY to have survived thus far
Sick of reading this shit...farking waste.



Yeah, me too. I'm looking for a GSXR6 or 750 for a track bike - went for a ride with ZXRIDER yesterday out past Miranda. Loads of traffic, heaps of bikes (and cruisers, maybe I'm a bit dull, but I don't get the point). But also loads of time to reflect on road versus track riding.


I've been reflecting on this post for the past few minutes, and fuck it, I'm about to start a fistfight. I spent a lot of time avoiding KB, even though now I'm enjoying the sense of community. For the record, I like this site, and I like a lot of people on here. But...

The but is this - I've ridden with a KB organised ride once, that was the thursday night ride from the Shell servo in the top of the northwestern. There were some fast boys, some normal people, and then the rest. 3 or 4 people lost their licences that evening, I watched a dick on a CBR 250/400 trying to keep up run off the road into the gravel (ended up riding in front of him showing him lines, and controlling his speed to ensure no replay later). One person rode their scoot into a fence, I found this out from an asshole cop who said it with barely concealed glee as he wrote out tickets (not to me for the record).

Now, I'm the last person to ever stand in front of you all in innocence. I ride over the speed limit (and I have my first speed camera ticket ever to prove it). I ride harder than I should. But, and here is the difference I think - I'm old enough to ride with a limit that provides a safety margin. I don't ride if I'm tired, I don't ride when I'm angry, and I don't even walk near the gixxer if I've been fucked up or drunk the night before. I treat my 1000cc bike with respect, we happily co-exist. If I abuse her, I die, it's that simple.

On the track, I ride progressively faster during the day, and yes, some would call me a pussy for not riding at 110% the whole time. On the road, I avoid riding with people who are markedly faster and push me too far beyond what I know my limits are, or those who ride aggressively or dangerously. This is the bit that will start the fist-fight - I also never ride on KB organised road rides following that Thursday night ride. I hear stories of bikes flung down the road on their sides on the coro loop. On KB rides, someone always hits the deck.

Now, understand that I'm not Katman, I don't wear panty liners, and you'll never get me riding a crusier - but it seems to me that there's a cultural issue here.

Ride within YOUR limits. Don't get your intentions and abilities mixed up. Ride with a safety margin. Pay attention to where you speed; I don't give a rats arse about getting a speeding ticket, but I'm damned careful not to end up in the shrubbery. I grew up on bikes being reminded that I had no right to ride through a corner faster than I could see what was on the other side.

Now I'm hiding under my desk for all the angry retorts...
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Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat (John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987, talking about the latest GSXR1000...)


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#34 Today, 14:05
Oakie
Hitcher's spellchecker

Bike: A black 1992 CB400 Super Four (NC31)
Location: Christchurch
Posts: 1,005


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorja
It would be rather nice if 99% of the New Zealand road rules could be removed and one simple rule applied.
Use Common Sense.

Trouble is that common sense doesn't seem to be that common.
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Grow older but never grow up


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#35 Today, 14:11
mstriumph
eschew obsification...

Bike: 2005 FZS1000 "Tasha"
Location: out back in the OutBack
Posts: 1,244



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixion
There are areas in Auckland (probably not in other places I realise) where 110 in a 50 would not be unduly dangerous. At certain times.

.............

and, in a more general sense, there are times on MOST roads where even DOING the posted limit would be dangerous

it's a two-edged sword - and you have to use your judgement ..........

irrespective, like many of the posters on this thread i tend to go by the rules in town ....... and, IMHO can't think of circumstances where doing more than twice the posted limit in a builtup area would be 'ok'......
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Grass wedges its way between the closest blocks of marble and it brings them down. This power of feeble life which can creep in anywhere is greater than that of the mighty behind their cannons....... - Honore de Balzac



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#36 Today, 14:16
jrandom
arbeit macht frei

Bike: Betty and the Snail
Location: Niflheim
Posts: 4,970


Quote:
Originally Posted by madbikeboy
Now I'm hiding under my desk for all the angry retorts...

Nonsense, sir. You know as well as the rest of us that that was a perfectly sensible and well-considered post.

You're not the only one on this forum who eschews group rides.

I, personally, only enjoy riding with people I know and trust. I dislike the publicly-advertised free-for-alls.

(Excepting the ATNR, which is really just an excuse to go to the pub.)
__________________
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey

what a bunch of winging homos you people are
- Craig Shirriffs

[MSTRS:Me]

What utter bullshit! If the shock factor (that is, the continuous stream of carnage on TV and fellow KBers dying left, right and centre) has no effect and doesn't get through to them, I hardly think they're going to change their riding because someone else has "Had an epiphany...".

The fallen riders would also have had an epiphany if they had survived to benefit from the result of their actions.

Can't agree with that. When members here that are highly respected 'cos they're well known for having 'been there, done that' start talking sensible riding tactics, the great unwashed sit up and take note.
When Katman spouts, he is flamed (because he didn't do anything to earn respect first), but when DMNTD spouts, it's a very different reponse.

[MotoGirl]

But if only one life is saved, isn't that enough? I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that it'd never happen.

I'm not suggesting that any action to help people become safer riders is a bad thing. When someone's thinking about what they should not do on a bike, I think the actions of a dead rider have more credibility than those of someone who's survived an accident.

[PrincessBandit]

...ultimately, it will end up slagging off what the deceased did or did not do .....

Having been reading through this thread (unfortunately with the original "cause and effect" one gone that is no longer around to check) the slagging match seems to be very much between certain factions of kb mentality against each other not about the deceased or their actions. At the end of the day everyone will have their own opinion about the actions of any rider who is no longer with us, ranging from grief through to "i don't really care as long as it's not me".
Reading through the link re site rules I don't think it was worded very clearly as to what is or isn't considered appropriate (sorry Joni, maybe you need to just clarify some of those points). I'm no idiot with reading but even I couldn't really work out what some of it meant. Maybe this might help clear up for others what they can and can't post at times like this.
Also nice to see someone attempting to make a helpful suggestion (blogging) regarding this particular situation. Don't know how effective it would really be given the nature of forums but at least it was constructive not just more of which seems to be going on.

[imdying]

When someone's thinking about what they should not do on a bike, I think the actions of a dead rider have more credibility than those of someone who's survived an accident.

Yes, there are people that will think like that I do however also believe that there are people who will absorb what is written by those that they respect, and take the advice (overt or otherwise) on board

[avrflr]

I can't imagine spending my day reading KB if a member of my family died. It's not like there's a KB screen on the wall of the lounge that can't be turned off. Avoiding the issue of why people die serves no one. Discussion is good, censorship is bad.

[MotoGirl]

Words of great wisdom MG
Interesting that the comments,PM's and emails I received from 26 other riders with similar mindsets,coming from similar riding backgrounds as myself suggest otherwise!!
It's all right,one day you may understand and hopefully sooner than later.

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive.

[MSTRS:Me]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive.

So, for you, these threads are unecessary...fair enough. The understanding should be of the mindset of others, who may not be so restrained as you, yet have respect for the ex-unrestrained members here. The world does not exist through rose-tinted specs, no matter how much you would like it to be.

[imdying]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive.

Read post 98 again... it's sometimes not about what a post can do for you, but what it might do for someone else, or in other words, even though you might feel that it doesn't apply to you, others might not see it the same way. Not everyone is wired up the same way as yourself, or myself, or any other self for that matter!

/edit: Oh I forgot to add; I'm not sure that being 'wise' is being upright and alive, being upright and alive seems more like a by product of being 'wise' (or maybe just lucky)... and what is this 'wise' anyway?

[DMNTD:Me]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive.

Jebus...recommend you set out to understand everything about motorcycling so you don't become roadkill...as you put it.
Been riding all sorts for a long time now and still have so much more to "understand",as does every motorcyclist.
Anyway...who sets out to deliberately become an accident victim?

"IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive."....indeed it is,indeed it is. Then surely learning as much as possible from those that know better would be beneficial? Learning from others' mistakes too is cheaper and far less painful experience.

[Ixion]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive.
Reply With Quote

Nobody deliberately sets out to become roadkill. (Well, maybe a few do, but that's a very special case).

And maybe you don't need to change your riding habits. Only you can decide that.

But , be aware that you only need to make one mistake, which may not even be your own fault, and you're going to die. Every time you (or any of us) start the bike, Death climbs on the pillion seat (No, not you Mr Death_inc. The skinny fellow).

Motorcycling is, for a lot of people , especially the younger ones, very concerned with peer emulation and peer approval.

An old Nanna like me telling people to slow down, be careful, ride defensively, doesn't carry much weight with the folk that need to hear the message. The unspoken response is "Yeah yeah, he's an old nanna , can't ride fast anyway so he wants everyone to slow down to his speed. Doesn't apply to me"

When someone like DMNTD says those things, it does carry weight. "Shit,he's real fast. If HE thinks that isn't on, maybe I should stop doing it/ slow down etc ".

So even if you don't need to change their riding habits , there are those who do. If that were not so, there wouldn't be any of the RIP threads. So is it responsible for you to say "I don't need to change, so noone should be allowed to encourage those who DO need to change to do so" ?

[nodrog:Me]

.... Learning from others' mistakes too is cheaper and far less painful experience.

and somtimes quite amusing

[MotoGirl]

Anyway...who sets out to deliberately become an accident victim?

Obviously the guys who're incapable of restraining themselves on the road. If they didn't think they were going to kill themselves why do they need the epiphany?

[MSTRS:Me]

But , be aware that you only need to make one mistake, which may not even be your own fault, and you're going to die. Every time you (or any of us) start the bike, Death climbs on the pillion seat (No, not you Mr Death_inc. The skinny fellow).

Riding sensibly and with due care and attention, is most of the answer...the rest is made up of luck. However, no-one can be perfect all the time (one slip may be all it takes), and there is always the completely unexpected to trip one up. Such as the road collapsing at the exact point in time you are on it. Or a plane falling out of the sky and landing on you (from behind). Or or or....
Just because 'you' have always done it, there is no guarantee that will remain the case. Bruce and Daryl, anyone? And yes, it still hurts. Many bikers altered their riding habits as a result of that event, but many have not. And then there are those who are unaware of that incident, and who may benefit from the lessons others learned.