Countersteering

[Roki_nz]

Here is a simple method to understand (kinda) how counter steering works.

1. Find a broom stick (with no broom)
2. Place this on your finger
3. Move your finger to the left. Notice how when you move the bottom of the broomstick to the left the top moves to the right.

As i was told this is the same way your bike counter steers

The physics involved are the same at least

[Roki_nz]

Also look on you tube for counter steering
A guy under the name of 13mordeth has done a couple of videos on it and also has done plenty on how to ride a motorbike

[scumdog]

After a zillion years of riding I finally got countersteering - the overt typ - recently..

On entering a corner I push on the 'opposite' handle-bar, it's a kind of downwards rather than forwards push.

But the effect is to make the bike heel over on the side I want it to, handy if I've underestimated the tightness of the corner.....

[The Stranger:Me]

Why do you have to be travelling over a certain speed before countersteering comes into effect?

Because your wheel must be acting as a gyroscope before counter steering will work.

[Mort]

Best way to see this in action is to hold a spinning bicycle wheel (not attatched to the bike)... try to turn the wheel left or right... it won't move easily. But if you give a little flick to the left or right it will instantly turn to the opposite direction.

California superbike teach this technique. Its used to turn the bike rapidly at the turn in point (best enabled with the hook-in technique). This means you can turn in later and still get the apex.

Its a great track technique ... a bit risky when used to extremis on the road I find...

[CookMySock]

cough, the bottom line is, all this centripetal stuff is talk-on-the-cereal-box.

Noobs enter corners initially using small balance corrections and then with speed adjustments to maintain track - which is why they end up heading for the gravel with no lean on, when "they are too fast", or powering-up to try to stay wider. What they should be doing, is giving the bar a harder push and not getting a fright as they enter, but leaning into the corner which is seemingly impossible to them, as the bike "will not lean over" which is quite true - it wont lean on its own without a countersteer push, which seems against their intuition at that time.

Push the right bar FORWARD to make the bike begin to lean right. Do it a split second before you need it, and the bike will lay over smartly and enter a nice curve.

Practice on straight road at or around 100km/hr. Start with VERY gentle pushes and note your wheels under you dart left and right. Build up to firmer pushes. Trying this at speeds under 70km/hr is less effective, requires more bravery, and is not a good demonstration of the technique.

Try not moving your weight whatsoever, and entering a lean for a shallow corner using a push on the bar ONLY. Prepare to be amazed. Now ride everywhere using a bar push ONLY to steer and soon you will have it mastered.

With regard to leaning the rider - I do it slightly, only for one reason. I have some difficulty keeping my body aligned with the bike during cornering - I tend to want to sit up straight, so to pre-empt this I move my helmet to the turn-side of the the windscreen.. only a matter of 10-15cm. I don't, or rarely move my torso. Now it is easier to lay over with the bike when it turns.

Read the wikipedia article carefully.

disclaimer: only just learning to do this myself.

DB

[Subike]

over the past few weeks of reading this and other threads on late apexing corners, I have been practicing this, and have found that cornering has improved, to the point that most corners I can negotiate now, faster than the speed limit for the road, let alone the recomended corner speed.
As for the wheel size gyroscopic thingimagig, I run a 19" front, which is a whole heap harder to turn than a 16" front on my brothers bike.
And interestingly enough, my Xsessive's engine rotates "backwards" as well, as a person somewhere said, this is to reduce the possibilities of wheel stands.
Maybee this is correct, as I have yet to lift the front wheel.
Or am I just not giving it a big nuff handfull of ego.
Back to subject, countersteering, enjoying playing with it now.
Have been trying in on cage free straight roads at 100kph negotiation those little white cats eyes in the center of the roadas turn reference points. fun

[Biggles08]

cough, the bottom line is, all this centripetal stuff is talk-on-the-cereal-box.

Noobs enter corners initially using small balance corrections and then with speed adjustments to maintain track - which is why they end up heading for the gravel with no lean on, when "they are too fast", or powering-up to try to stay wider. What they should be doing, is giving the bar a harder push and not getting a fright as they enter, but leaning into the corner which is seemingly impossible to them, as the bike "will not lean over" which is quite true - it wont lean on its own without a countersteer push, which seems against their intuition at that time.

Push the right bar FORWARD to make the bike begin to lean right. Do it a split second before you need it, and the bike will lay over smartly and enter a nice curve.

Practice on straight road at or around 100km/hr. Start with VERY gentle pushes and note your wheels under you dart left and right. Build up to firmer pushes. Trying this at speeds under 70km/hr is less effective, requires more bravery, and is not a good demonstration of the technique.

Try not moving your weight whatsoever, and entering a lean for a shallow corner using a push on the bar ONLY. Prepare to be amazed. Now ride everywhere using a bar push ONLY to steer and soon you will have it mastered.

With regard to leaning the rider - I do it slightly, only for one reason. I have some difficulty keeping my body aligned with the bike during cornering - I tend to want to sit up straight, so to pre-empt this I move my helmet to the turn-side of the the windscreen.. only a matter of 10-15cm. I don't, or rarely move my torso. Now it is easier to lay over with the bike when it turns.

Read the wikipedia article carefully.

disclaimer: only just learning to do this myself.

DB

Very good post DangerousBastard, and you are indeed correct. One further point I would make is that once one feels comfortable with manipulating the handlebars in this manner it is actually quite important to correct your body position too. This is to insure you remain at least in a 'neutral' balance with the bike throughout the corner. This will greatly improve your ability to change your line quicker in any direction while set in a lean on the corner. In other words, if you tend to sit upright in a corner, in any small amount, you will find it harder to increase your turn circle if you've fucked it up and overcooked your entry speed (which a lot of noobs do - i did plenty of times). In this case, you would be at an advantage if your body was at least at the same lean angle as your bike...even advantaged more if your positively leaning into the corner. Some find it a difficult thing to master and a simple hint for people finding this the case is to simply 'drop' you shoulder in the direction of the corner. This will begin to position your body better for the corner.

I recommend that learning to manipulate the handlebars first before worrying about your body position is more important. This is so noobs don't get confused as to what is actually making then turn the corner...a lot of people think it is their body weight that turns a motorbike but this is bollocks (unlike push bikes which is more this way due to their light weight and slower speeds)...it is the bars (counter steering) that make your bike turn and you merely assist this with positioning your body correctly into a corner.

[2fst4u]

Ahhm sorry mista but unless ur an american there aint no such thing as centrifugal force. . . . .Its centrepital ACTUALLY hahaha but wat sad fuk would notice that in a post???


Not me definatly...............

Il go crawl in a hole and study physics or sumthn hahaha

centripetal force is the reaction force of centrifugal force. if you swing a bucket full of water around, the force holding the water in is centrifugal but the force pushing back towards you keeping the rope (or your arm) taught is centripetal force. newtons 3rd law. every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

im not ashamed of my brilliance

[The Pastor]

Only bikes with USD forks can countersteer.

[The Stranger:Me]

I was thinking more along the lines of the less gyro effect the better a bike would steer so the closer you get to zero the better.

But since you brought up the sledge model have you seen those snow bikes?

Basically a bike with a ski on the back and front.(no gyro). How do these get steered going down the mountain at say 50KPH ? Well its not countersteering according to you?

After a full review of all the material in this thread, I can say with absolute certainty that you are a complete tosser.
Why is it that you feel the need to pontificate on subjects you obviously know nothing about?

[discotex]

over the past few weeks of reading this and other threads on late apexing corners, I have been practicing this, and have found that cornering has improved, to the point that most corners I can negotiate now, faster than the speed limit for the road, let alone the recomended corner speed.

bling duly awarded.

You deserve a prize for trying it yourself and finding it makes you a better rider.

Who says no-one listens to advice on KB (good/bad or otherwise)

[GSVR]

After a full review of all the material in this thread, I can say with absolute certainty that you are a complete tosser.
Why is it that you feel the need to pontificate on subjects you obviously know nothing about?

Glad you didn't have anything to argue that anything I said has been incorrect as your attitude has saved me the time.

Bikes do not hold their line wheelstanding out of corners due to spinning front wheels. Anyone who thinks about the physics can figue that out.

[CookMySock]

Hokay,

I can do this countersteering thing, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated as it is STILL taking large amounts of rehearsing each corner as I approach them, and if I don't mentally rehearse them, I find myself running out of road on the outside of the corner going for my brakes - returning to my old ways again.

I have been practicing this for a few weeks now, and I feel like I'm missing something - not getting it at all. My speed through corners has increased though.. I was chickenshit scared to lean the bike before, but I'm still hitting some sort of mental block.

How do I get past this ? or am I being to impatient and hard on myself ? Just let it come ?


TIA,
DB

[Subike]

in my opinion
if you are running out of road, practicing
then get off the road
Im not being sarcastic
Find an large empty carpark and spend a few hourd ridding around in ever decreasing circles, thinking about what you are doing, what the bike is doing, which gear you are in, where the thottle is........feel everything
As you continue to do this, you will find yourself getting faster withoot effort.
A far safer place than on th open roadways to practice,
A tennis court is all you need for room, and 1/2 doze coke bottles
Enjoy, its acually good safe fun as well, cause you can practice braking as well in safty