Countersteering

[CookMySock]

Stop doing it on purpose. Nothing will ever work if you try too hard. Really, please.

ok ok. Will take a break from "teaching" myself so intently.

I once had a paragliding instructor, who was completely unable to give me a concise description on how to do ANYTHING. According to him, it was all about how you held your tongue, and how I should go "mmmmmm, zen". When we asked a straight forward question, he would describe the required actions as "something like this - and wave his arms in the air". He was vastly skilled and experienced which was ubundantly clear to us noobs, but we never learned anything from him coz we never GOT TOLD HOW TO FUCKING DO ANYTHING.

Remember chasing that girl? Trying too hard didn't work.

cough, can we not go there ? lol

Good luck and enjoy yourself.

thank you, yeh

DB

[Crisis management]

ok ok. Will take a break from "teaching" myself so intently.

You're getting the idea now.........

Look, it's supposed to be fun, go out and pootle around at whatever speed you're comfortable with and just enjoy riding a bike in the sunshine.

As Ixion & Ocean1 points out, there is too much information and analysis available now, bikes are really simple, they fall over when stopped so you need to keep moving to not fall off. Thats all you have to do.

You'll find there is a time when you can comfortably push yourself up a notch, you'll be ready for it when the idea of trying something new is exhilarating rather than frightening.

Enjoy today.

[The Stranger:Me]

Are you incapable of creating a constructive post?

Sure I am, however you are impervious to logic so it would futile of me to engage you in a logical discussion.

[The Stranger:Me]

As far as I'm concerned the first post on this thread is all riders need to know.

If you ride a motorbike you countersteer. Its not something new but the way its waffled on about here would have you think its something not all riders do.

Did your research bring you to this conclusion?
Mine is somewhat different.
Very few understand countersteering and its applications. Few will instinctively contersteer an obstacle. Very few will use it say when setting up for a corner.
During the RRRS course we send bikes at a person in the middle of a lane, all they have to do is countersteer left or right when indicated by the person. Perhaps 1 in 30 manages to get this right first time. Of course they have been countersteering for ages right, so that is all they need to know aye. We see a very big cross section of riders from total noobs to riders with 40yrs experience.

Ok, I shall try and keep it simple for you - there are more complex and accurate explanations.
Take your bike out of the garage and keeping it vertical push it along the driveway, now push on the left bar, which way does it go? Mine will go to the right, does yours? Now straighten it up and whilst still pushing it, let go of the bars. What happens? The bike falls over. Why? No gyroscope to keep it up is there?

Now repair your bike, don your gear and get ready for the next exercise.
Accelerate to 50kph, push on the left bar, which way does the bike go? Mine goes to the left this time, wow, that's different. Now straighten up, sit squarely on the bike and let go of the bars, what happens, nothing much, you decelerate a bit, but the bike doesn't fall over. What's changed from the first exercise that could account for these changes? That's right, both your front and rear wheels are acting as a gyroscope.

See a pattern?

[Usarka]

Bikes do not hold their line wheelstanding out of corners due to spinning front wheels. Anyone who thinks about the physics can figue that out.

My understanding is that a spinning front wheel very much helps the stability in a wheelie. Anyone who can actually wheelie long enough to know care to confirm this?

[jrandom]

That's right, both your front and rear wheels are acting as a gyroscope.

A thought experiment.

Would something with similar characteristics to a motorcycle, but without any spinning masses (say, a single-bladed sled propelled along the snow by a jet engine - bear with me here, it's just a thought experiment) be harder to balance upright?

Without any spinning wheels to act as gyroscopes, would keeping such a contraption balanced upright at 100kph be just as difficult as keeping it balanced upright at a standstill?

[Badjelly]

When I learned to ride , countersteering hadn't been invented. So no one did it. We just shoved the bike into the corner and leaned it over.

...

Then I got a more modern bike, so I had to learn how to counter steer. And I found that it was just a fancy-nancy way of saying 'shove the bike into the corner and crank it over'

Actually, I invented countersteering (though admittedly I may not have been the first). It was in 1975 or so, and I noticed that when riding my Suzuki GT250 that I was working the handlebars more than I had with my previous bikes. The GT250 had somewhat odd steering, actually, it felt like it was a large bike from the steering head forward and a small bike behind that...or something like that. Anyway, I explained it to motorcycling friends, "You push on the inside bar to tip the bike into the corner, and on the outside bar to pull it out". And they all said, "You bloody idiot, if you do that you'll fall off. Everyone knows you steer bikes by leaning them."

Some time much later, I was happy to learn that what I had discovered had a name: countersteering. By the way, does anyone know when that term became widely used?

My current bike, a Scorpio, also has somewhat odd steering, in my opinion, though I can't put my finger on it exactly. The front wheel seems to want to fall into bends at round-town speeds. It's more noticeable when the tire pressures are down, but still there when they're correct. When I started riding it never seemed to go exactly where I expected around a corner. Again I find myself doing more steering with the handlebars and with a firm hand it gopes where I want.

All this is a long-winded way of agreeing with Ixion: countersteering is just a fancy way of describing what most motorcyclists do naturally (while in some cases strenuously denying it). Thinking consciously about it *might* help you ride a bike better, but *might* get you confused. It depends on the bike, the tire pressure and profiles, and on whether you're an analytical or instinctive person.

[The Stranger:Me]

A thought experiment.

Would something with similar characteristics to a motorcycle, but without any spinning masses (say, a single-bladed sled propelled along the snow by a jet engine - bear with me here, it's just a thought experiment) be harder to balance upright?

Without any spinning wheels to act as gyroscopes, would keeping such a contraption balanced upright at 100kph be just as difficult as keeping it balanced upright at a standstill?

I give up?
Though I would guess it would gain stability from the snow rushing beneath the blade of the sled - similar to a water skier.

[jrandom]

I give up?
Though I would guess it would gain stability from the snow rushing beneath the blade of the sled - similar to a water skier.

Yes, I'm honestly not sure, but intuitively I suspect that speed would give such a setup additional stability.

The question is whether, and if so by how much, a motorcycle gains further stability from its spinning bits.

If the abovementioned further stability is negligible, then all witterings about gyroscopes in rider training could be squashed, and cornering would simply become a matter of weight transfer plus centrifugal (yeah yeah, centripetal, whatever) force.

Plus, of course, either turning the front wheel out of the corner to aid the bike in rolling over to one side, ie 'countersteering' (at high speed, where centrifugal force tends to overcome weight transfer) or turning into the corner to prevent it from doing so (at low speed, where centrifugal force is negligible and weight transfer tends to just make the bike fall over).

Obviously a bicycle or motorcycle at rest will always tend to fall toward the back of the front wheel when the front wheel is turned; that has nothing to do with gyroscopes.

My suspicion is that the true physics of the situation tend more toward my comments above than to a model with a large gyroscopic force component, but I don't have the familiarity or the tools to work it out properly.

[GSVR]

My understanding is that a spinning front wheel very much helps the stability in a wheelie. Anyone who can actually wheelie long enough to know care to confirm this?

Yes the spinning wheel does help as any of the big wheelie guys on here will confirm.

[GSVR]

Did your research bring you to this conclusion?
Mine is somewhat different.
Very few understand countersteering and its applications. Few will instinctively contersteer an obstacle. Very few will use it say when setting up for a corner.
During the RRRS course we send bikes at a person in the middle of a lane, all they have to do is countersteer left or right when indicated by the person. Perhaps 1 in 30 manages to get this right first time. Of course they have been countersteering for ages right, so that is all they need to know aye. We see a very big cross section of riders from total noobs to riders with 40yrs experience.

Ok, I shall try and keep it simple for you - there are more complex and accurate explanations.
Take your bike out of the garage and keeping it vertical push it along the driveway, now push on the left bar, which way does it go? Mine will go to the right, does yours? Now straighten it up and whilst still pushing it, let go of the bars. What happens? The bike falls over. Why? No gyroscope to keep it up is there?

Now repair your bike, don your gear and get ready for the next exercise.
Accelerate to 50kph, push on the left bar, which way does the bike go? Mine goes to the left this time, wow, that's different. Now straighten up, sit squarely on the bike and let go of the bars, what happens, nothing much, you decelerate a bit, but the bike doesn't fall over. What's changed from the first exercise that could account for these changes? That's right, both your front and rear wheels are acting as a gyroscope.

See a pattern?

Where we differ is our veiws of what makes a bike tip into a corner.

The faster you go the less input is needed eg at 50kph you may turn the bars 1 degree for 0.3 of a sec to get the bike leaned x amount of degrees. At 100kph to achieve the same x amount you might input 1 degree for 0.15 or 0.5 a degree for for the same 0.3 of a second.

When in the corner you have two main forces acting gravity and the centripedal force pushing the bike to the outside of the corner. The resultant of these two forces is the plane the bike is operating in. If you where to ride a bike on the wall of death you would not have to countersteer to come down as there is already a force (gravity) naturally tipping the bike the way you want to go .

Like balancing a broom in your hand and your hand is the contact patch of your front wheel. Broom differs in the fact it doesn't have a rear wheel so you have to move in 2 axis.

To lean any bike you first turn in the opposite direction to where you want to go then as the bike falls ( or pivots about its COG) then you correct this by turning in the direction you are going. As you are cornering all you are doing is balancing the bike in the resultant force (force of gravity and the force pushing to to the outside of the corner). This happens at all speeds even on a pushbike.

[CookMySock]

haha, no really, your steering is actually connected backwards lol

edit: naw seriously, yes we all countersteer, but it's so easy to panic and straighten up when the going gets tough, or lean angle gets past our comfort zone.

It seems if I eyeball my "way out" of the corner it might all come to pass. But today, a break and relax and enjoy it. Then back to it hardcore!!

S

[Usarka]

Bikes do not hold their line wheelstanding out of corners due to spinning front wheels. Anyone who thinks about the physics can figue that out.

Yes the spinning wheel does help as any of the big wheelie guys on here will confirm.

huh?

To lean any bike you first turn in the opposite direction to where you want to go then as the bike falls ( or pivots about its COG) then you correct this by turning in the direction you are going.

When I'm u-turning at low speeds I turn the handle bars without countersteering which leans the bike. So much that I have to lean in the opposite direction to keep it upright.


Crack is only good for the short term, it all goes pear shaped pretty quick!

[GSVR]

huh?




When I'm u-turning at low speeds I turn the handle bars without countersteering which leans the bike. So much that I have to lean in the opposite direction to keep it upright.


Crack is only good for the short term, it all goes pear shaped pretty quick!

To the first to statements the bike would still hold its line if the front wheel stopped spinning. So the gyro guys will say its the back wheel holding the bike up? Good wheelie guys can also go around corners on the back wheel

When someone pulls a 3km wheelie the front does stop spinning and they do not fall over.


And to the last enter a few go slow races and get really good at it.

[The Stranger:Me]

Where we differ is our veiws of what makes a bike tip into a corner.

Cut waffle

When in the corner you have two main forces acting gravity and the centripedal force pushing the bike to the outside of the corner. The resultant of these two forces is the plane the bike is operating in.

Cut even more wafle

To lean any bike you first turn in the opposite direction to where you want to go then as the bike falls ( or pivots about its COG) then you correct this by turning in the direction you are going. As you are cornering all you are doing is balancing the bike in the resultant force (force of gravity and the force pushing to to the outside of the corner). This happens at all speeds even on a pushbike.

Yes, it appears we do differ.
Wikipedia actually has a good explanation of what's going on for you, and I quote
"A gyroscope is a device for measuring or maintaining orientation, based on the principles of conservation of angular momentum. The device is a spinning wheel or disk whose axle is free to take any orientation. This orientation changes much less in response to a given external torque than it would without the large angular momentum associated with the gyroscope's high rate of spin."

And again

"The wheel responds to a force applied about the input axis by a reaction force about the output axis. The 3 axes are perpendicular, and this cross-axis response is the simple essence of the gyroscopic effect."

It is the cross axis response referred to above which causes the bike to tip in as a response to a force applied about the input axis.

centripedal force - is this similar to centripetal force? Again, from the source of all things true "centripetal force is the external force required to make a body follow a circular path at constant speed (speed being the magnitude of velocity). The force is directed inward, toward the center of the circle or "oriented toward the axis of rotation"; force which is directed outward is centrifugal force."
So remind me, what is the force you refer to above which, to quote you is "pushing the bike to the outside of the corner"?