Poll: Learner speed restriction change?

[BiK3RChiK]

Why would a person on L plates be riding on the motorway?
I do have isssues with our nanna state dont get me wrong here.
Common sense tells you that a person with very limited experience is unlikely to react to a dangerous situation propperly
Keeping their speed down to 70 means reduced collateral damage if they get it wrong.
Putting them in heavy traffic at 100km/h is just asking fro trouble

Probably, but there are more places to ride than the motorway... NZ is made up of many 100k zones besides Auckland Motorway! Try going from small town NZ to larger town/city NZ at 70km/hr in a 100k zone and see how you like it...

Not every noob gets on the bike and immediately goes at 100km/hr. Usually they build up to it as their confidence improves. I concede that there are some idiots out there though.

M

[Mikkel]

For people under the age of 25, its 6 months on learners and 12 months on restricted (providing you do a defensive riding course).

We're both partially right:

Info is here.

Under 25:

6 months on learners
18 months on restricted - can be reduced to 12 months by doing the course.

Over 25:

6 months on learners
6 months on restricted - can be reduced to 3 months by doing the course.

[FROSTY:Me]

Try going from small town NZ to larger town/city NZ at 70km/hr in a 100k zone and see how you like it...M

THATS EXACTLY THE POINT -- you shouldn't be doing so !!!
The whole intent was for you to be out practicing your riding skills

Theres exceptions to every rule of course-- Sam Smiths a perfect example-can he ride--DUU or a MX rider who's decided to come over to a road bike after years
BUT theres where I think the change BACK in time is needed
You used to be able to accelerate your licence process if you went to a riding school (coca cola was the most famous) could demonstrate competence as a rider then you got your licence after 3 months instead of 6

[Ixion]

I think what you have to remember is that the GDLS was built around cars. And people learning to drive cars. Motorcycles, as always were an after thought.

Now, a learner in a car is almost certainly young. We do get older people learning to ride bikes. But very few car learners will not be teenagers - it does happen but percentage wise it's tiny.

So the law makers assume that learner = teenager.

Secondly, a car learner is supposed to always have an older supervisor in the car. Which means several things

Firstly, car learners, because they can only go out with a supervisor, don't get the hours in that learner riders do. So, six months minimum may be (as some have suggested) unduely long for a 6L, where the learner rider is out every day riding. But it's probably reasonable for the car learner, who probably only gets to practice once or twice a week for an hour or so.

Secondly , the supervisor will be able to make a call on when the learner is sufficiently ready to tackle motorways, open road. No-one would take a car learner onto the motorway on their first lesson! But the bike learner has no such supervisor to say "not yet". So when the law makers did turn their attention to bikes, and realised that it was impossible to have a supervisor, they imposed the 70kph limit, to try to prevent the new rider heading onto the Auckland motorway on day 1.

Thirdly, the psychological effect of the learner licence is quite different for bikes and cars. When a new rider gets his/her 6L, it's access to the wheels of freedom. No supervisor means that the 6L wants (and expects) to be able to use his/her new bike as transport. He wants to go everywhere on it. The car learner though, it's just a process to go through. The 1L doesn't really provide any new freedom, you are still tied to Mum or Dad, they have to come with you (I know, some people ignore the supervisor thing. Let's assume we are talking folk who obey the law.) And, Mum and dad being along, the 1L driver isn't going to be out at nights (Mum and Dad want to watch TV). Or heading out to far flung towns.

And , realistically, the system is ALWAYS going to be built around the car learner. Just pray they don't bring in some requirement to have professional instruction. For bikes that would be a real PITA.

Some have commented on the basic handling skills test. I don';t see that as an indication of any competance at riding on the public road. The BHS test is in a car park, it just establishes that the person can use the controls. They still have zero skills at actually riding in traffic (not true for those who already have a cage licence - but as I said, the lawmakers start with the teenage car learner) .

Nobody is ever happy with restrictions. We've seen in this thread , people arguing that 6R should allow 600cc. An R6 after six months. Hmm.

Every novice, after the first few weeks, feels sure that they have the whole thing sussed. And, indeed, when I started out, there were no restrictions. And I knew a lot of novice riders died because their bikes exceeded their skills, too. The GDLS does its best to save such folk from themselves. By and large, it probably works fairly well. And the restrictions (irksome though they may be) are still quite relaxed compared to many countries.

[FROSTY:Me]

Have you heard of a thing called self control? If your a learner and don't feel comfortable at a 100kph then ride a little slower. Fuck, old people do it all the time.
If your under the age of 25 then you have to have your learners for 6 months. Thats a pretty long time to not go out onto the open road. Infact its fucken stupid.

Dude I think its a matter of personal prospective.
For you on a 250 chomping at the bit to ride --it sucks.
For me --burried way to many freinds. seen too many learner rider accidents -I kinda work the law of averages

[Mikkel]

Frosty, have you considered for just a moment that what might be needed is a change of attitude.

That perhaps busy city traffic is not the best place to learn how to ride a motorcycle?

That the development that caused a need to introduce a graded licensing system with at least a couple of tests etc didn't stop when those measures were implemented?
That today the amount of traffic on the roads is too high to use it as a classroom?
That today the amount of traffic imposes a higher demand upon the individual roaduser and that the licensing system is inadequate?

And surely, you can not argue that going 100 km/h on an empty road is more dangerous than riding 50 km/h in rush-hour traffic?

[FROSTY:Me]

Mikkel-You keep missing the point--a learner licence rider shouldn't be in rush hour traffic any more than they should be on the open road at 100km/h
If you use the time on a learner licence to practice your riding skills rather than being out thinking the little blue bit of plastic is a right to ride anywhere anytime ...

[Mikkel]

Mikkel-You keep missing the point--a learner licence rider shouldn't be in rush hour traffic any more than they should be on the open road at 100km/h
If you use the time on a learner licence to practice your riding skills rather than being out thinking the little blue bit of plastic is a right to ride anywhere anytime ...

And you're missing the point that a 6L will be used for commuting in the city and riding on the open road - and that there's no reason it shouldn't.

I do however think we both agree on one thing: Learning is important and should be handled in a safe and controlled environment.

You're saying however that the restrictions on the learners are if anything too lenient and that all people on a learners license are effectively muppets who doesn't know the first thing about what they're doing.

I'm saying that some of the restrictions on the learners and restricted licenses are bullshit and the problem is to be found in how you obtain the license. That there's a valid case for putting proper rider/driver training in place before you let people loose on the public roads.

Seriously, I can be fined $400 and 25 demerit point for riding my bike safely between 10 pm and 5 am. However, if I am in my car it's perfectly alright - how idiotic is that?

NZ apparently has some trouble with it's road statistics compared to similar countries. I dare say that the driver/rider education/licensing system doesn't work very well!

[BiK3RChiK]

THATS EXACTLY THE POINT -- you shouldn't be doing so !!!
The whole intent was for you to be out practicing your riding skills

Umm... dood! Can't practice my skills if I can't get out on the road now, can I? I live in Edgecumbe!!! How am I going to show the testing officer in Whakatane I have the adequate skills necessary to get my Restricted when the time comes if I don't go out on the open road? Or do you think I'll get enough skills just riding around the half a dozen streets here? Because I don't think so!! There aren't even any round-a-bouts! Whakatane is full of them! But to get there I have a 15 to 20min ride on the open road!!!


M

[Soul.Trader]

Is it just me, or is it painfully obvious that Frosty is a Dorklander with very little perspective of the REST OF THE COUNTRY?

[Ixion]

No . What he is saying , is that an L licence is a licence to LEARN, not to RIDE.

You , and all L riders, want to be off and away on your new freedom wheels. It's natural. You want to ride here, ride there, go wherever you wish.

But --- that's NOT the view of the people who wrote the law. They see the 6L learner in the same light as the 1L learner. The L licence is not intended for transportation. The car learner, they say, is not able to whizz off wherever and whenever he wishes. Not should the learner rider.

The fact that the 70kph limit would prevent a learner from being able to get from A to B, because open road or motorway intervenes, would not sway the lawmakers. They would reply "That is exactly what it is intended to do. Let the learner first learn to ride. Then, and only then, they may take to the highways"

I don't necessarily say that philosophy is right. But, like Mr Frosty, I've seen too many novices hospitalised or buried not to see some strength in the argument.

[BiK3RChiK]

Well, perhaps that is the case in some instances. But how then does someone in say Ohaupo, Egmont Village, Patea, Te Teko, Kawakawa, Kaeo or some other small village in good ol' NZ learn to ride then? There are many places on main roads with 100km/hr zones that people with L-Plates ride because that is where they live. How are they going to 'learn' if they can't go out on the open road, when the open road is right at their gate and they have a 1/4 acre section with trees, a garden, sheds etc,etc? Not everyone on a Class 6 L-Plate licence lives in Auckland or the suburbs!

M

[Mikkel]

I don't necessarily say that philosophy is right. But, like Mr Frosty, I've seen too many novices hospitalised or buried not to see some strength in the argument.

Well, riddle me this. If they managed to enforce the L-period in the way you describe it... How many people do you think would bother about getting a bike license in the first place?

Edit: Oh and it goes without saying - not bother getting a license, get a litre bike, no insurance and then go out and learn like that...

[Ixion]

Well, perhaps that is the case in some instances. But how then does someone in say Ohaupo, Egmont Village, Patea, Te Teko, Kawakawa, Kaeo or some other small village in good ol' NZ learn to ride then? There are many places on main roads with 100km/hr zones that people with L-Plates ride because that is where they live. How are they going to 'learn' if they can't go out on the open road, when the open road is right at their gate and they have a 1/4 acre section with trees, a garden, sheds etc,etc? Not everyone lives in Auckland!

M

But they can indeed go out on the open road. There is nothing forbids that. And if they live in a small village it would seem very probable that there are a good many little trafficed roads very close by, where a learner pootling along at 70 would not be at any risk. Indeed on many such roads the majority of traffic does not much exceed 70 kph.

[BiK3RChiK]

But they can indeed go out on the open road. There is nothing forbids that. And if they live in a small village it would seem very probable that there are a good many little trafficed roads very close by, where a learner pootling along at 70 would not be at any risk. Indeed on many such roads the majority of traffic does not much exceed 70 kph.

Hahaha... Seems you don't get out much! Come to the Bay of Plenty mate and see just how busy our roads are!! You try 'pootling along at 70'!

M