If you ever start thinking you're safe...

**Ixion** · 25th February 2008, 14:24

Originally Posted by Jiminy

It's funny, I've learned most of those things driving a car first, including not braking in a curve. Maybe it's the Kiwi driving standard that is too low?

Possibly so, but the point is you can get away it "BadThings" in a car. You won't on a bike.

And what's wrong with braking in a curve ? I do it quite often. Depending on the bike I'm on. Wouldn't do it in a car. So I guess that's one thing that a rider turned driver would have to unlearn.

**Swoop** · 25th February 2008, 14:26

Originally Posted by Badjelly

I don't know which is worse: people who drive their cars the way they drive their supermarket trolleys, or people who drive their supermarket trolleys the way they drive their cars.

I truly believe that a psycologist could get a good thesis out of this behaviour.
Supermarket trolley "operator skills" appear to be an indicator to the driving skills of the person concerned.

It is truly frightening.

**YellowDog** · 25th February 2008, 14:37

I don't know about some of this.

Being a bike rider, I believe I am a far more aware car driver and likely to be safer to myself and other road users, particularly bikers.

As a motorbike rider, I consider my abilities and ambitions to be fairly limited. I know there are far more able riders than myself. I would suggest that this makes me a safe bike rider as I believe that I know my own limitations.

I am therefore a confident bike rider, which I consider this to be a good thing.

**Learner Zealot** · 25th February 2008, 15:39

I hear what people are saying regarding respect instead of fear and I certainly agree to a point. I know when doing the course for my learners the first thing I had to work on was relaxing my arms and getting that sense of flow. It's a great feeling too once it comes together.

Riding in general is a great feeling, that's why I'm still doing it, and I still want to hold on to some of that initial fear. Maybe I've expressed it all wrong in exagerating for effect. No one can keep up fear while nothing bad happens - fear naturally goes down by itself. I don't mean panic - no one would continue to ride if fear didn't diminish, nor should they.

There was a doco on the effect of higher safety technology on driving habits (can't remember the title). It basically showed that the more safe we make our vehicles, the crazier we drive them. We drive right up to our percieved level of risk. One of the experts on the doco made a statement that stuck with me. He said something along the lines of "the best safety device for a vehicle would be to have a bayonet sticking out of the steering wheel".

As riders we don't have airbags making us feel safer, but we still ride up to our percieved level of risk, which depends on how good we think our riding skills are. The more skillful you feel, the harder people tend to ride. The thing is that it greatly reduces the reaction time to a point where no matter how good your skills are, when something out of the ordinary happens, you're not going to have time to employ those skills.

The idea that binning is inevitable is dodgy. I agree with it to the level that I think people in shorts and a Tshirt are fools. I wonder about it in terms of being complacent and diminishing the risk of coming off though. It could just be semantics.

**swbarnett** · 25th February 2008, 15:56

Originally Posted by Learner Zealot

There was a doco on the effect of higher safety technology on driving habits (can't remember the title).

Don't know the name of the doc but the affect is called Risk Homeostasis for those that want to Google it.

Originally Posted by Learner Zealot

when something out of the ordinary happens, you're not going to have time to employ those skills.

If those skills are ingrained into your subconscious they'll be applied in whatever time you have (they still may not save you though).

Ever noticed how in an accident time seems to slow down? This is because when we are threatened we think much faster. It's an evolutionary programmed survival skill that allowed primitive humans to hunt dangerous prey.

**Paul in NZ** · 25th February 2008, 18:02

I used to have 'opinions' on the 'right' way to go about things motorcycling and riding etc. In recent years, I've realised that there is no 'right' way, or at least not one I'm aware of!. I'm still learning myself and also, given the sorts of bikes I like, I have little to offer the modern motorcyclist.

There is one observation I have made over the years you night find interesting.

When my kids started kindy and then school - I'm sorry - be it upbringing, genes or environment you could look at the other little kids in the class (you are not detached enough to do yours) and pretty accurately guess which ones were going to be trouble and which ones would thrive.

Go for a group ride, similar deal - I'll bet you could go around with a sticker and with 80% accuracy mark em up into 5 bunches.

1. Lucky to get home today - definitely will be dead within a year.

2. Serious accident risk or dead in two years.

3. Rides like a demon but un natural skills to match - possibly invulnerable - will live forever.

4. Mostly safe but no spirit or love for it. Will soon give up, have kids and bore people about how dangerous bikes are now.

5. Competent, self sufficient and reliable, with a little luck will come through unscathed. No worries, ride with you anytime.

Critically – I’ve come to think its rider temperament rather than raw ability or even training that seems to be a major factor in surviving. Can rider training change this? Stuffed if I know, never had the chance to find out and frankly I don't want to. Like Ixion I have a very very healthy fear of motorcycles and I like the way they scare the living shit out of me - I certainly don't want to reduce that.

Honestly - a while back I started measuring people like that on rides and it scared me so much I just avoid other riders.

Cheers

**Motu** · 25th February 2008, 19:11

I would like to go against the grain and endorse car driving before bike riding.The time when we are most vulnerable as riders is when we are really new - we have no motor skills to control the bike,have no idea about traffic and how it operates.To get those motor skills,and put the ''I've never done this before'' nervousness behind us,I think a little time in the cocoon of a car is of benefit.Perhaps like the '50's version of pedal cars and trikes on a mini street scene,but with real people,real traffic light and trucks that can destroy.But once we can control the bike with confidence,there is nothing better to instill the concept of mortality.

Like those other old buggers Ixion and Paul,I too still fear my motorcycle,I am aware as I put the layers of protection over my vulnerable body what exactly I am going to do.....ride my bike in a hostile environment.I too can tell at a glance the type of rider I see,most give me a little pang of concern....they really aren't made for this activity,it's only a temporary thing....one way or another.But it's a thrill,and some jealousy,when you see that person with natural talent oozing out of them....I've tried so hard all these years to reach average.But I've stuck with it anyway.

I remember the Dandenongs - it was a long way to go out of the city to find roads like we had everywhere in NZ.Excellent riding country.

**Usarka** · 25th February 2008, 19:15

Good call Motu, it was hard enough learning the bike let alone worrying about all the road rules, traffic n stuff.....

Someone mentioned bicycles being a good pre-req. me mountain biking skills (as shit as there were) have saved me salty ham a few times so far.......

**HenryDorsetCase** · 25th February 2008, 19:24

Originally Posted by Ragingrob

Yet I'm sure most if not all cage drivers do not feel any fear when they step into their car.

One of the reasons I am fearful when driving is that I am absolutely convinced that every other driver on the road is going to do their level best to kill me. Works in a car, works on a bike, up to a point.:

See that dumb bitch in the riced up piece of crap Japper? She is texting on her mobile phone, not looking for me.

See that truck? that guy's been on the road 8 hours and was loading for 7 hours before that: he's tired and close to home, and that last quad shot is wearing off.

See the reverend in the Ford Escort? He doesnt care whether he lives or dies, so he dont give two shits about me.

See the Previa with a stressed Mummy and eighteen screeching kids in the back? Shes too focused on whats going on in the car to think about me!

See the Falcodore? that sales rep is under quota for the month and he is late for the meeting that could make or break his career. Plus he's just dropped McMuffin innards in his crotch and its HOT, plus he's just got a text from his wife who he suspects of having an affair with his boss... he's WAY too busy to care about me.

See the mid -90's Nissan sunny with the nodding dog in the back, and the sheepskin seat covers? the driver has Alzheimers and THINKS she just missed her turn-off.... and the bowls game she was going to was actually LAST Wednesday...... she doesnt even know I am here, so it will be a surprise to both of us when she kills me.

See the white van? He sure as shit ain't see you.

...........see my point? Fear is useless. Risk assessment and mitigation will save your life.

**Learner Zealot** · 25th February 2008, 20:32

Originally Posted by HenryDorsetCase

...........see my point? Fear is useless. Risk assessment and mitigation will save your life.

I didn't see that that was your point. Risk assessment is tied up with the fear which leads to the mitigation. Without fear there is no sense of risk. Without fear we would all be dead. Just like people with no pain receptors tend to have all manner of physical injuries and have a greatly reduced life span (they also tend to have less fear through no physical pain feedback). I get your emphasis though.

**swbarnett** · 25th February 2008, 20:33

Originally Posted by Motu

I would like to go against the grain and endorse car driving before bike riding.

This is actually a legal requirement in Switzerland. The stated reason is that you can't have a licensed driver on a bike with you to teach you road sense.

**Learner Zealot** · 25th February 2008, 20:36

Originally Posted by Motu

I remember the Dandenongs - it was a long way to go out of the city to find roads like we had everywhere in NZ. Excellent riding country.

Yeah, you guys are certainly lucky that way. I'd love to ride around NZ - cost is bit a prohibitive in getting my bike over there for a holiday though. Taking my bike down to Tassie in April - not the same I know.

**swbarnett** · 25th February 2008, 20:36

Originally Posted by Learner Zealot

I didn't see that that was your point. Risk assessment leads is tied up with the fear which leads to the mitigation. Without fear there is no sense of risk. Without fear we would all be dead. Just like people with no pain receptors tend to have all manner of physical injuries and have a greatly reduced life span (they also tend to have less fear through no physical pain feedback). I get your emphasis though.

Very true. At the same time though, if you only had fear you wouldn't do anything. You need to push through the fear to get on with life. This combination of fear and motivation results is what is commonly known as a healthy respect.

**Learner Zealot** · 25th February 2008, 20:43

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

Critically – I’ve come to think its rider temperament rather than raw ability or even training that seems to be a major factor in surviving. Can rider training change this? Stuffed if I know, never had the chance to find out and frankly I don't want to. Like Ixion I have a very very healthy fear of motorcycles and I like the way they scare the living shit out of me - I certainly don't want to reduce that.

Cheers

Yeah, I'd go along with you there regarding temperament. I think the combination of someone who rides primarily for the thrill of the fear and habituates to that fear easily (i.e. it keeps taking more and more to produce that fear) will find trouble eventually.