Serious Crash Unit last night (early this morning)

[skidMark]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?

ummmm

you bring on the rear then the fronts?

if you already have rear on when you bring on the fronts the weight going to come off the rear and it will skip more unexpectedly i would have thought, i always use fronts first around town, i try to avoid rears on the open road and track to be a bit more smooth.

but i do use them if i gotta stop in a hurry.

to turn tighter if i run wide out of a corner etc..... lock the rear so bike turns tight, then power over it with a drift.

Takes practise though, not reccomended for newbs.

[Nagash]

For emergency stops I prefer there much simpler.. both brakes on at the same time. Gotta be a bit more cautious in wet conditions but it hasn't failed me so far.

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

[skidMark]

For emergency stops I prefer there much simpler.. both brakes on at the same time. Gotta be a bit more cautious in wet conditions but it hasn't failed me so far.

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

Yeah if everytime i was going to hit somebody if i tried to haul the anchors on i wouldve bent alot of front wheels into cars.

I just peel off what i can and swerve, thats is if theres no way in hell i can stop.

in saying this i can stop in a bike length from 50kph.

[McDuck]

ummmm

you bring on the rear then the fronts?

about the same time, bit hard to wright it like that tho.

[90s]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?

Totally.
There are a number of reasons why, including transferring weight through the front suspension by braking on the front first. On a sport bike 90%+ of your braking power comes through the front - on the biggest cruisers still over 70%.
Anytime you are not braking on the front you are pushing your braking distance out, and changing the loads on the suspension of the bike that will not get the best of the front when you try. It is always important to come onto the front slightly before the rear if you can.

A study you can find through KB took all the variables out braking stablised bikes under controlled conditions and confirmed all the facts.

But more usufully do it yourself. You can do what they do at RRRS, or you can set it up in a car park yourself.

Set up some cones in a line.
Repeat each step 4 times or so.

1. Hit the start of the cones at 50kph - brake only rear.
2. Repeat, brake only front.
3. Repeat with both brakes.

This is emergency braking, so don't worry about the clutch or stalling (yes, I know there is an advanced debate on this .. I also know the data ... ) - the aim is to save your life.
I have done this on a number of different bikes with equal cone spacing, and the results have been similar:
1. 2 1/2 cones
2. >1 cone
3. >1 cone (fraction less than 2 - about 10cm)

When you do this for your bike then you will know how to brake effectively on your bike.
This is something you must do.
Imagine locking the rear in an emergency on a curve - at this point you are not decelerating - then hammering the front straight without loading it. Wash out. Bye bye.

Good luck.

[90s]

Just some more - as weight comes forward onto front brake during heavy deceleration weight comes off the back - making it more likely to - or guarenteed - to lock, and therefore provide no braking power.

It is WORSE to skid on the rear for braking control than to not be braking on the rear at all. At the point of locking is where most power comes from.

On a super sport the front is so powerful 100% of braking in emergency is on the front as the rear is off the ground.

[koba]

Good advice above!

Instictivley grabbing the front brake and just squshing it as hard as possible while Still leaned over too much has caused two impressive highsides for me tho, so you do have to do more than just brake if you are slightly off upright.

In saying that the second time I highsided although I ended up tipping myself off the bike I also narrowly missed far worse outcomes of running my good mate over or hitting his bike.

Practice Practice, Always learning....

[Mikkel]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?

If you keep an eye on your back wheel you'll be going in circles - it's called target fixation. If you can see your back wheel while sitting on the bike I believe you have other things to worry about though

Other than that - what 90s said!

For emergency stops I prefer there much simpler.. both brakes on at the same time. Gotta be a bit more cautious in wet conditions but it hasn't failed me so far.

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

Ouch mate, that is a very very quick way to set yourself check and mate! If you accelerate in an emergency it's very easy to overlook something else and if you do so you're likely to get hurt worse than you would by braking badly!

[Ixion]

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

Ouch mate, that is a very very quick way to set yourself check and mate! If you accelerate in an emergency it's very easy to overlook something else and if you do so you're likely to get hurt worse than you would by braking badly!

The OP is correct. Acceleration is a load better option on a bike than braking.

I've been following that rule for over 40 years and a million or so two wheeled kilometres and it's not got me into trouble yet.

Grabbing the brakes when it goes nasty is the reaction of a cager turned rider. There *ARE* times when emergency braking is the only answer but they are rare. Much much less common than "brake hard to scrub off speed and prepare to dive down the bolthole".

Y' should *always* have a bolthole ready. I don't think I've had a ten tenths braking situation in at least 20 years.Head where the danger isn't . That's what'll keep you upright.

[Mikkel]

The OP is correct. Acceleration is a load better option on a bike than braking.

I've been following that rule for over 40 years and a million or so two wheeled kilometres and it's not got me into trouble yet.

Grabbing the brakes when it goes nasty is the reaction of a cager turned rider. There *ARE* times when emergency braking is the only answer but they are rare. Much much less common than "brake hard to scrub off speed and prepare to dive down the bolthole".

Y' should *always* have a bolthole ready. I don't think I've had a ten tenths braking situation in at least 20 years.Head where the danger isn't . That's what'll keep you upright.

I'm not going to argue against your experience. However, if you are going to hit something then you want to do it as slowly as possible! (Ekin = 0.5*m*v^2 )

A bolthole is all good - just make sure it is indeed free of danger before you hit the throttle!

Turning broken bones and a road rash into a funeral is not a good plan!

[steveb64]

The OP is correct. Acceleration is a load better option on a bike than braking.

I've been following that rule for over 40 years and a million or so two wheeled kilometres and it's not got me into trouble yet.

Grabbing the brakes when it goes nasty is the reaction of a cager turned rider. There *ARE* times when emergency braking is the only answer but they are rare. Much much less common than "brake hard to scrub off speed and prepare to dive down the bolthole".

Y' should *always* have a bolthole ready. I don't think I've had a ten tenths braking situation in at least 20 years.Head where the danger isn't . That's what'll keep you upright.

Yeah! - except he really isn't! In fact, it's something I've taught the missus over the past years - particularly when driving on gravel (yep - same rule works for cages too) - it's amazing what BRAKE (scanning for escape route) OFF BRAKES, SWERVE, GAS can do for a bad situation (like a logging truck on the wrong side (or all) of the road.

A classic example that I know of was a senior nurse, who'd been in Whangarei doing some work, had finished and was driving back to Auckland. Heading down the south side of the Brynderwyns, she was getting pissed off with some yob dickhead tailgating her, when she came around a corner to be met with a truck coming up the wrong side of the road at her! She swerved hard left into and up the bank, hitting the gas as she did it, and DROVE AROUND the truck. The guy tailgating her braked, hit the truck head on, and died.

Remember - you tend to go where you're looking, so if you see a problem, and keep looking AT IT, then you'll likely hit it. If you start looking for a way out, or around (or even a soft spot to hit ), as soon as you see the problem (or even the first sign of a possible problem), then the odds are immediately better for you.

[skidMark]

Good advice above!

Instictivley grabbing the front brake and just squshing it as hard as possible while Still leaned over too much has caused two impressive highsides for me tho, so you do have to do more than just brake if you are slightly off upright.

In saying that the second time I highsided although I ended up tipping myself off the bike I also narrowly missed far worse outcomes of running my good mate over or hitting his bike.

Practice Practice, Always learning....

Ive never had a highside, mind you ive never stonked the fronts while banked over.... if i gotta stop while banked over and no room to upright worst somes to worst stonk the rears countersteer it hard and lay her down.

it's only fairings and paint

[terbang]

Rider requires a quick stop, hits the rear brake too hard and as the bike rocks forward the rear lightens up and starts to skid. A skidding wheel has less "traction" or grip than a rotating wheel and it wants to come around and overtake the front one that is happily braking with increasing weight (we've all done handbrakeys in a car before, havent we). So the rear is stepping out and startled rider instictively removes the rear brake pressure, the wheel stops skidding and regains grip. This sudden increase in grip, while the bike is going sideways, is the nail in the coffin as the bike now has a tendancy to highside, flicking its rider onto the direction of the slide and then hunting him/her down as it cartwheels out of control in the same direction.
The difference is between our ears..

[McDuck]

Rider requires a quick stop, hits the rear brake too hard and as the bike rocks forward the rear lightens up and starts to skid. A skidding wheel has less "traction" or grip than a rotating wheel and it wants to come around and overtake the front one that is happily braking with increasing weight (we've all done handbrakeys in a car before, havent we). So the rear is stepping out and startled rider instictively removes the rear brake pressure, the wheel stops skidding and regains grip. This sudden increase in grip, while the bike is going sideways, is the nail in the coffin as the bike now has a tendancy to highside, flicking its rider onto the direction of the slide and then hunting him/her down as it cartwheels out of control in the same direction.
The difference is between our ears..

I have locked the rear up when practssing and i have found that it is not hard to unlock it quickly and get on with braking.

[sidecar bob]

ummmm
to turn tighter if i run wide out of a corner etc..... lock the rear so bike turns tight, then power over it with a drift.

Takes practise though, not reccomended for newbs.

Dang!! i bet its not reccomended for newbs!! you must teach me how sometime.
Is it OK if Andy Stroud contacts you for a chat?