Two-stroke emissions not so bad?

[stanko]

What you ring ding haters forget is that while the 2ts may make a bit of visible smoke from their oil consumption, is their oil never needs to be changed and disposed of which is an enviromental issue that 4t owners forget about. Most of NZs waste oil is burned in cement kilns creating toxic pollution. At least 2t owners are up front about their pollution

[Ixion]

Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.

Nope. People wanted the two smokers all right. The were dropped solely because of US emissions rules . In fact there was such a uproar from the worlds bikers (I was a part of it!) that Yamaha and Suzuki decided to reintroduce the two stroke, whick was the RZ and RG series. Unfortunately they never brought back the big ones . The later two strokes weren't (by and large) ever sold in the US.

We can judge how popular two strokes wuld be in the absence of restrictions by looking at the jetski and snowmobile markets - where two strokes either dominate or are at least on the same footing as four strokes.

[pete376403]

Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.

I quite liked my Suzuki GT250K, though I did get embarrassed when I opened the throttle and it left a smoke trail you could walk on!

go here http://www.arb.ca.gov/db/search/search.htm
and search two-stroke emissions. Lots of docs relating. The factories stopped producing the big road strokers because of these, not because the consumers didn't want them - (how could the consumers NOT want them? What were the options? CB750 or Brit bikes that made up for in oil leaks what they lacked in exhaust smoke)
Recall also these were the days of air-cooled (with the exception of the GT750) engines, which meant looser control of engine temps (affects emissions), and the oil technology was not as advanced as it is now.
I remember baffle decoking was a regular part of the two stroke tune-up, getting rid of all the accumulated oil residues

[Badjelly]

What you ring ding haters forget is that while the 2ts may make a bit of visible smoke from their oil consumption, is their oil never needs to be changed and disposed of which is an enviromental issue that 4t owners forget about. Most of NZs waste oil is burned in cement kilns creating toxic pollution. At least 2t owners are up front about their pollution

I haven't seen any ring-ding haters posting on this thread. Certainly not me. What I hate is ring ding lovers yammering on about bloody bureaucrats & politicians driving their poor darlings off the road without having made any effort at all to understand the problems. In other words, denialism. I do hate denialism.

Still, you raise an interesting point about engine oil. Hmmm, what temperature do cement kilns run at? No need to answer that: Wikipedia says 1850-2000 degC. So the hydrocarbons and such-like in the oil are going to be burned pretty well, I should think (which is the reason for using cement kilns).

Granted there'll be bits of general crud (material worn off the cylinder bores and such-like) in the oil, which will end up as particulates, but cement kilns have filters to strip at least some of the particulates out. And if you're going to get worried about that, you might like to think about what happens to the material worn off the cylinder bores in a 2-stroke.

[pete376403]

Around Wellington quite a bit of recycled oil gets burned in the locomotives at Steam Incorporated. They leave it in holding tanks to let the various cruds settle (the bottom of those tanks must be pretty toxic). I've spoken to one of the loco firemen about performance - he said it's ok but not as good as proper fuel oil, and it soots the tubes up more.

so the oil ends up in the atmosphere after all...

But I thought most of the recycled oil ended up being just that - re-refined and put back into the market. It's too valuable to destroy just because it's dirty.addition

[Badjelly]

The factories stopped producing the big road strokers because of [two-stroke emissions], not because the consumers didn't want them - (how could the consumers NOT want them? What were the options? CB750 or Brit bikes that made up for in oil leaks what they lacked in exhaust smoke)
Recall also these were the days of air-cooled (with the exception of the GT750) engines, which meant looser control of engine temps (affects emissions), and the oil technology was not as advanced as it is now.
I remember baffle decoking was a regular part of the two stroke tune-up, getting rid of all the accumulated oil residues

Maybe you're right. I was a bike rider during that time, but I didn't know what was behind the factories' decisions.

[Badjelly]

so the oil ends up in the atmosphere after all...

Yeah, but I still think the hydrocarbons are likely to get burned more thoroughly than the oil that goes through 2-stroke engines.

[Badjelly]

By the way, I don't have a 2-stroke motorbike these days, and I wouldn't, because of the poorer fuel economy and the air pollution and because I just like sound and feel of 4-strokes better. And the old, faithful Victa mower died a year ago and was replaced by a 4-stroke. However I do have a 2-stroke machine, namely an olive harvester powered by a small chainsaw engine. It's got a lot of character, that engine! You have to drive it hard or it'll foul its plugs, but the power output from such a small, light engine is amazing. You have to admire it, however much you hate the noise and smoke (and I do). A small 4-stroke just wouldn't work in this application. The only alternative I can see to a 2-stroke engine is pneumatic drive from a much large, stationary engine. So I'm also doing my bit to pollute the air with hydrocarbons, but one thing I will do is switch to using synthetic oil exclusively.

[Str8 Jacket]

Ridden by SPECIAL people?

Watch it buster!!

2 smokers ROCK! I just wish that I could stop blowing them up!

[imdying]

Really, who gives a crap... no amount of whinging will bring 2 strokes back (in to production), and if they outlaw them, that's hardly going to stop us riding them (oh noes, no wof no reg, whatever shall I do...).

Badjelly, go and smile at a single person today... or help an old person across a road, or whatever, that will have more infinitely more effect on the world than if this thread were to make a thousand pages long.

Just ride your boring slow bike and enjoy life without worrying about what the stinkwheel nuts are riding... cause they sure as anything don't give a crap about things like your bike...

[Edbear]

Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.Riding a 2 stroke is worth all the black looks and talking behind my back - riding bikes is all about having fun,and shit...nothing is as much fun as a 2 stroke motorcycle!

Have to say I've never noticed an RS250 putting out much smoke...

[Motu]

But I thought most of the recycled oil ended up being just that - re-refined and put back into the market. It's too valuable to destroy just because it's dirty.addition

The oil refineries were shut down many years ago - there is still the problem of the wastes.I was shown around the old Dominion Oil Refinery in Onehunga,maybe just a few months before it was shut down,and it was pretty old technology they were using....like clay filters for a start.I also didn't like my favorite brewery just up the road using spring water for it's choice beers.....or maybe that's why it always tasted so good to an old grease monkey like me....

[jcupit69]

Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.

I quite liked my Suzuki GT250K, though I did get embarrassed when I opened the throttle and it left a smoke trail you could walk on!

Kind of a mix of the 2 from what iv managed to piece together.

From what iv gathered (and i may be wrong too) with the 250cc area at least was that japan changed its emissions laws and the japanise market was the biggest market for the 250's. Iv heard many different things but i know suzuki stopped making the rgv motor (due to emissions law change i think?!?), and that saw the end of the rs250 in 2003, the last of the 2stroke sports 250's......

If anyone knows the full story id love to hear it, iv only managed to piece bits and bobs together......

[jcupit69]

Have to say I've never noticed an RS250 putting out much smoke...

They blow a bit of smoke in the warm up, but your right if your running good oil their not that bad. Castrol TTS is good, but doesnt give that 2stroke smell

[jcupit69]

Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.Riding a 2 stroke is worth all the black looks and talking behind my back - riding bikes is all about having fun,and shit...nothing is as much fun as a 2 stroke motorcycle!

True that!!!!