KB = Mourning

[fLaThEaD FreD]

Im interested in the thoughts of my fellow Bikers about this subject.
Ive been a biker for, hell ,EVER being an old bugger I have been around for a while and it seems to me that the last few years have been quite tragic there have been many close friends and fellow bikers being seriously hurt and or killed.
When I first joined KB about 5 years ago it seems to me (bad memory syndrome) that we never really had as much serious carnage certainly not like what we do now,and these days its on a reasonable regular basis.
For me In the last ,.....say 2 years I have lost a fair number of mates from motorbike crashes, why and hows arent what this thread is about,
this thread is saying the more you get into the Motorcycling world via racing forums etc the more mates you will loose as a result of crashes, it seems obvious to me know that this is the price I pay for knowing so many bikers, the trouble is Im not sure how comfortable I am paying this price anymore.
I can name these guys whom I have known that have been hurt or who have died recently
Not in Order

Flyin (died)
OldFart (died)
Loosebruce (died)
Shaun Harris (seriously injured)
DSS3 (Died)
Stonechucker (seriusly injured)
MotoBob (seriously injured)
UncleB (died)
Derek hill (died)
inlinefour (seriously injured)
Oarbreaker (died)
Skelstar (seriously injured)
Razya (died)

(anyone not there I forgot, or didnt actually know them)

8 Dead
5 badly Injured

Thats just guys I know, some very closely and some as online mates. But all I have met.

So whats this all about, well its a wake up call, its a hey guys be careful............NO NO seriously........ Be careful !!
This is getting mental and deeply worrying, for me at least, I mean who of you is next ? based on the above it will only be a few weeks before one of you dies, horrible thing to say isnt it? but im afraid its reality.

In light of the last few days with the recent deaths at Pukekohe I guess its made the heart feel even heavier and has got me thinking whats around the corner for me, who is it next, is it me? when do I get another phone call or read a post about another incident, kinda depressing aint it?

thats about it, little Quasi bleet over

in a Somber mood, but not depressed (for the record)

Let them all be remembered

[Katman]

Now unless you can change what happens in the adolescents brain, you will never get them to listen, you will never get them to understand. You're best to just take away all their dangerous toys.

It's not just adolescents that meet the 'idiot' criteria. And it won't just be adolescents who lose their toys if the government decide to intervene.

[Bass]

I'm with the folk who put it down to increased membership numbers combined with the ongoing fact that bikers die on the road, end of story. Always have, always will. Two wheels and an engine with a young man in control is, statistically speaking, a recipe for carnage.

Not that I'm meaning to sound fatalistic; after all, every moment on a motorcycle, we're in control, we make the decisions. Sometimes, when we fuck up, it's fatal.

Nature of the beast. Accept, move on. Do one's own best to stay safe. Nowt else that can really be said.

There's a modicum of wisdom here.
Most of us accept that motorcycling is a risky passtime, but what I have never understood is the attitude that accepts that people must die, that it is inevitable and that we can do nothing about it (and I am not trying to put words in Jrandom's mouth here, rather, I am adding to what he said)
It's NOT inevitable, we CAN do something about it and I have issues with those who put down the people who try.
I am not a dreamer who imagines that we can ever succeed 100%, but I do believe that It can get a shitload worse if we ever stop trying.
So yet again - thanks Quasi

[MSTRS:Me]

There's a modicum of wisdom here.
Most of us accept that motorcycling is a risky passtime, but what I have never understood is the attitude that accepts that people must die, that it is inevitable and that we can do nothing about it (and I am not trying to put words in Jrandom's mouth here, rather, I am adding to what he said)
It's NOT inevitable, we CAN do something about it and I have issues with those who put down the people who try.
I am not a dreamer who imagines that we can ever succeed 100%, but I do believe that It can get a shitload worse if we ever stop trying.
So yet again - thanks Quasi

Dan is right - there is a risk associated with motorcycling. A risk that is greater than in (most) other forms of transport. It IS inevitable that some will get caught out - if they didn't, it is either because they managed the risk effectively, or the perceived risk is not real. Which is it to be?
Ixion mentioned a sore point (with me at least) 'A time to reflect'...that thread is still locked away from the general view. Time to re-instate it, I think, because it was on the very subject of this thread, which is a poignant reminder of the realities of motorcycling, coupled with the opportunity to teach/learn some restraint whilst in control of a machine capable of so much pleasure and pain.

[onearmedbandit]

It's not just adolescents that meet the 'idiot' criteria. And it won't just be adolescents who lose their toys if the government decide to intervene.

Read my post again. I said that there are those that grow past adolescence who then become idiots. And yes you are right, the govt will take away the toys. As they have done in the past (fireworks anyone?). But I still feel that while inexcusable behaviour is exactly that, inexcusable, you will never weed it out of mankind.

[Swoop]

Almost 11,000 memebers on Kiwibiker

A statistic that is possibly irrelevant.

KB is still growing (quite rapidly I might add, just had the 10,000 registered member on 04/03/2008)

As above, but there is a massive amount of members who have signed up then departed. I spent a little while looking at this yesterday, and the amount of "short timers" is staggering.
It is like a shop saying "we have XXX customers" while counting the people through the door and disregarding the number of people putting cash through the till. (bad comparison, I know.)

Two wheels and an engine with a young man in control is, statistically speaking, a recipe for carnage.

A very good and valid point. Quasi's list is very sexist. Female "biker down" threads are unheard of.

As Finn says it is a numbers game. If we were a cage forum would we be lamenting the 300 - 400 lost per year i.e. 6 to 8 per week.

I have to disagree with this. The community is far tighter on 2 wheels. A small community of cagers, probably a club or a specific interest, would mourn their friends, but on the whole they probably don't give a tinkers cuss about the "overall" road deaths.

I respect your post and point of view Reckless, but much like yourself strongly disagree. Life it seems is now so cheap a major tragedy can occur and racing is not stopped and the general public not informed. In my mind that represents appalling bad taste.

Reality check for some people? There is no "reset" button to press and re-commence the game.

[Mikkel]

There's a modicum of wisdom here.
Most of us accept that motorcycling is a risky passtime, but what I have never understood is the attitude that accepts that people must die, that it is inevitable and that we can do nothing about it (and I am not trying to put words in Jrandom's mouth here, rather, I am adding to what he said)
It's NOT inevitable, we CAN do something about it and I have issues with those who put down the people who try.
I am not a dreamer who imagines that we can ever succeed 100%, but I do believe that It can get a shitload worse if we ever stop trying.
So yet again - thanks Quasi

I agree with what MSTRS wrote.

Death is indeed inevitable, no matter whether you get on a motorcycle or not. Time is flying and we have to try and make the most of it...

The possibility of grievous bodily harm is almost always present if you choose to engage in just about anything that'll make you heart pound and/or mind buzz. (Sex and computer games are a couple of exceptions - although they can cause damage in other ways...)

If, as an individual, you choose to engage in such activity I think it would be desirable if you at least sit down and reflect upon the possible consequences. If you have trouble accepting the possibility perhaps you should refrain from engaging in such activity in the first place.
Surrounding just about all such activities there's a more or less tightly knit community. If you engage socially with your fellow community members it is, given enough time, unthinkable that one of your mates isn't going to pass away (if not from an accident else then at least old age/cancer/you name it) - and the passing of a mate, no matter what the reason, will always be a sad thing.

I agree with you Bass that it is important to try and do something about it. Because while we can not, as you say, remove motorcycling fatalities it may be possible to reduce them.
However, I think a realistic perspective (death is inevitable, but we have some impact upon when, where and how we take it) is a better foundation to build upon.
Oh, and as Quasi said - no one listens. I don't know about that - but there sure are a lot of people who doesn't.

[MSTRS:Me]

Just to clarify, re the 'inevitable' comment....it is not inevitable that a particular individual is going to crash and die (that can be avoided) but it is that 'someone' will.

[Deviant Esq]

There are plenty of people who seem not to listen, but that the message does get through to. To the messengers of this forum, it seems as though noone is listening, but mostly none who has paid attention and has changed his ways has made a post to say "wow that's great advice, that's me from now on." They've read it, not posted, had a think about it, moved on, and found themselves being more careful out there. The message is getting through to some people, making them and others safer. If only we could do something about the drunk drivers and boy racers, not to mention soccer mums in supersized SUVs, crazed delivery vans and taxis....

RIP our fallen friends. Lest we forget.

[McJim]

I listen. I tried a faster bike (my wife's) and realised I posess a lot less self control than I thought I did. I'll stick to the bike I've got - it can still get me into trouble but it's not as effortless to get into trouble as a litre sportsbike so it gives me the time I need to re-think my actions as I approach the "I'm in trouble" zone.

And yes, I am aware that you can have a disaster at almost any speed.

[Lissa]

When Skel had his accident my mum was asked if she was worried about me having one. Her comment was no because I dont ride fast.

I had to correct her, how fast I ride has nothing to do with not crashing. There are so many variables that could go wrong as soon as you climb on your bike. I could crash due to someone elses stupidity, my own stupidity, road conditions, weather conditions etc etc.

All that I can do is understand the risks, and ride as safely as I can within my limits. I can not control anyone else's riding and especially with the people I care about I just have to trust they know there own limits. I can not tell anyone, even Skel that I don't want him to ride because I am scared he will crash again, this is something that only he can decide and work through.

I like to think I take some lessons or learn from others mistakes as I really dont want to have that one big mistake which will cost me and my loved ones too much.

[Ixion]

Go read this thread, reflect on the attitudes it highlights, then come back here and say whether you think there's any hope.

[MSTRS:Me]

When Skel had his accident my mum was asked if she was worried about me having one. Her comment was no because I dont ride fast.

I had to correct her, how fast I ride has nothing to do with not crashing. There are so many variables that could go wrong as soon as you climb on your bike. I could crash due to someone elses stupidity, my own stupidity, road conditions, weather conditions etc etc.

All that I can do is understand the risks, and ride as safely as I can within my limits. I can not control anyone else's riding and especially with the people I care about I just have to trust they know there own limits. I can not tell anyone, even Skel that I don't want him to ride because I am scared he will crash again, this is something that only he can decide and work through.

I like to think I take some lessons or learn from others mistakes as I really dont want to have that one big mistake which will cost me and my loved ones too much.

And this, people, would be the most sensible and realistic post on this subject that I have ever read.
There's a few on here that should have Lissa's words of wisdom tattooed to the inside of their eyelids.

[FROSTY:Me]

My attitude towards this and similar threads to it over the past years is pretty simple.
They DO do some good.
The way I see it is if it makes ONE ydfoc (young dumb full o....)
sit back for a moment and rething his riding even just for one day hey ya might have just saved his/her life.
Given that we aint cats with 9 of the buggers to spend. TODAY maybee he gets to live another day.

[90s]

Alot of comments saying thats what we do, its a numbers game, ....
For Example, during the day when Loosebruce took out Dss3 he was basically being selfish dick and was not really thinking of anyone else apart from his gaining that sqilly second BUZZ (and another and another), Infact he usually rode in this way.

I think this addresses your original question. It is not just a numbers game. It is not just that the KB community is more aware of accidents. Riding behaviour and related accidents have changed over your time riding and led to a different type of accident profile.
Group based riding used to not be common, or of a different nature (ie. cruisers in packs rather than 'coro loop' style riding groups. Accidents between bikes were rare, but now make up a large portion of bike accidents.
Far from the emphasis on 'young idiots' in this forum, the most at risk groups are males between 34-45, esp. those that have 'returned' to biking.
So your observation is not an articfact of more information, but you correctly have seen a real shift in biker accidents.
If you are in the risk group and go on a group ride you are in a situation where an accident is much more likely than in previous times, where this type of riding was less common, and anonymous riding groups were also less common.
All the other posts are also true, but reflect what was, is and will continue to be true about the risks of biking. Modern practice has added an additional layer of bike-v-bike accidents.
There is no reason for many of these accidents, like the sad death of loosebruce and DSS3. Unlike the inherent dangers of motorbiking this is something that is in our control and if we want we can reduce the growing numbers of accidents of this type.