Who is in the right here?

[discotex]

Ummm since when? I understood that vehicles not already on the road give way to everything that is.

Umm since the give way rules were put in place. A driveway is considered an intersection for the purpose of the give way rules.

If someone is turning right into a driveway and someone is leaving the driveway turning right the former must give way. It's the same as an uncontrolled T intersection (e.g. one with no give way or stop sign).

It's rare that this happens at your home obviously but it's very common at shops etc.

[Patrick]

Umm since the give way rules were put in place. A driveway is considered an intersection for the purpose of the give way rules.

If someone is turning right into a driveway and someone is leaving the driveway turning right the former must give way. It's the same as an uncontrolled T intersection (e.g. one with no give way or stop sign).

It's rare that this happens at your home obviously but it's very common at shops etc.

Extremely rare at your home, I would guess.... but if this was to happen, yes it would be correct, a driveway is an intersection... in this scenario only. However.....

Driveways are NOT roads... Someone leaving a drive gives way to all.

Carparks, service stations etc ARE roads. Someone leaving these places, the give way to the right applies. (Unless someone is controlled by lights, signs etc, of course....)

[Badjelly]

Driveways are NOT roads... Someone leaving a drive gives way to all.

Carparks, service stations etc ARE roads. Someone leaving these places, the give way to the right applies.

You're right, I think, though the question is not so much "What is a road?" as "What is an intersection?" This is what the Road Code says:

What is an intersection?

An intersection is where:

* two or more streets or roads join or cross
* a public entrance or exit joins a street or road.

Intersections include entrances and exits to and from supermarkets, petrol stations and other public parking areas such as airports and hospitals.

So the place where your private driveway joins a road is not an intersection. Meaning that the give way rules for intersections do not apply, nor does this one

Blocking rule

You must not go into or attempt to cross the intersection, railway level crossing, pedestrian crossing or an area controlled by pedestrian traffic signals, unless there is space for your vehicle on the other side of the intersection or crossing.

[Ixion]

The "driveway out of the supermarket car aprk" classes as a road.

Normally not a problem, since the vehicle coming out of the car park will be turning and must give way to the straight thru traffic on the road . The one time that one can get caught out, is the car coming out of a supermarket type 'driveway' and intending to shoot straight across the road into another such 'driveway' opposite (or another road on a T intersection directly opposite, if such a rara avis is to be found) .
Technically if you are pootling along the road and see such a vehicle up ahead on your right (ie coming out of a car park exit and not indicating) , you must stop and give way to him . In reality one assumes that the twunt just hasn't bothered to indicate. But if he DID claim the right of way you would be in the wrong.

I think on reaosn for the problem is the obsession of the authorities for making every intersection a controlled one. So people have little occasion to apply the rule.

[discotex]

I'm sure someone has already posted it but can't hurt to have it several times.

This page of the online road code is very clear (with helpful pictures) about how to apply the give way rules at uncontrolled intersections.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roa...rsections.html

In a nutshell:

- Turning traffic always gives way to traffic that is traveling straight through (i.e. following the white line).
- If you are turning you give way to all right turning traffic on your right.

[klingon]

I think on reaosn for the problem is the obsession of the authorities for making every intersection a controlled one. So people have little occasion to apply the rule.

And this is what makes it hilariously funny when a set of traffic lights fails (or in the case of Auckland's power cuts a couple of years ago, several sets of lights fail). The lights turn to flashing orange lights which mean "this is now an uncontrolled intersection - give way rules apply."

And suddenly people go absolutely nuts with fear and confusion. They have no idea what to do, so they either
a) close their eyes and fly through the intersection without slowing down or
b) stop dead in the middle of the road and refuse to move in any direction at any speed.

IT'S NOT THAT HARD, PEOPLE!

[Badjelly]

And this is what makes it hilariously funny when a set of traffic lights fails (or in the case of Auckland's power cuts a couple of years ago, several sets of lights fail). The lights turn to flashing orange lights which mean "this is now an uncontrolled intersection - give way rules apply."

And suddenly people go absolutely nuts with fear and confusion. They have no idea what to do, so they either
a) close their eyes and fly through the intersection without slowing down or
b) stop dead in the middle of the road and refuse to move in any direction at any speed.

IT'S NOT THAT HARD, PEOPLE!

Also 4-way stops.

The 1977 "new" road rules were intended to remove the ambiguity in the previous rules. (I mean, "courtesy prevails", come on!) The thing that convinced me this is not necessarily a good thing was living in Fort Collins, Colorado for 4 years. That place was full of 4-way stops and for a while I couldn't work out what the priority rules were. The local counterpart to the Road Code had some stuff that seemed to bear no relation to what people did. Then I twigged it. The rules were:

• Take turns
• Be nice

You drove up to a stop sign. You stopped. You waited until any vehicles that were already at the stop signs when you arrived had gone through. You took off. It worked beautifully! Granted, when things went wrong it might have been hard to work out who was "at fault". But this disadvantage was more than outweighed by the fact that things very seldom went wrong.

[Patrick]

....So the place where your private driveway joins a road is not an intersection. Meaning that the give way rules for intersections do not apply, nor does this one

True - but the scenario given about two vehicles turning into the one drive would make it an exception to that rule - even if it is unlikely....

[klingon]

Also 4-way stops.

The 1977 "new" road rules were intended to remove the ambiguity in the previous rules. (I mean, "courtesy prevails", come on!) The thing that convinced me this is not necessarily a good thing was living in Fort Collins, Colorado for 4 years. That place was full of 4-way stops and for a while I couldn't work out what the priority rules were. The local counterpart to the Road Code had some stuff that seemed to bear no relation to what people did. Then I twigged it. The rules were:

• Take turns
• Be nice

You drove up to a stop sign. You stopped. You waited until any vehicles that were already at the stop signs when you arrived had gone through. You took off. It worked beautifully! Granted, when things went wrong it might have been hard to work out who was "at fault". But this disadvantage was more than outweighed by the fact that things very seldom went wrong.

This is the rule in a surprising number of US and Canadian cities. I couldn't quite believe it when I started driving over there and my Bro in Canada gave me a quick run-down on the road rules for different states I would be driving through.

"What do you mean, be courteous?! That can't possibly work!" Well to my great surprise, it does.

It comes back to Ixion's earlier comment about over-regulating. In NZ we expect someone else to be rtesponsible for telling us what we have to do, and all common sense and courtesy soon goes out the window.

Same with that Dutch town that got rid of all its traffic lights a year or so ago. Suddenly people had to pay attention to what other traffic and pedestrians were doing. Brought their road toll way down by removing the regulations and returning the responsibility to the road users.

[klingon]

True - but the scenario given about two vehicles turning into the one drive would make it an exception to that rule - even if it is unlikely....

Have you ever been to Auckland - the land of the in-fill housing?! Lots of houses sharing a single driveway, and of course the developer made the driveway as skinny as possible so they could fit more houses in the space.

It's quite common for me to have to apply the give-way rules to my own driveway.

[vifferman]

The "driveway out of the supermarket car aprk" classes as a road.

Normally not a problem...

Except... people don't realise this, and there's an unofficial (urban folklore?) rule that people adopt, viz: "the big road has right-of-way over the little road".
Our local supermarket driveway looks like a driveway, so people treat it as such. It's hopeless when turning right out of it expecting people turning right into it to give way to you, because they won't. Alos, when driving around big supermarket carparks, unless there are signs painted on them, people go, "Awrriiight!! The Wild West Rules apply! Let's go crazy! Might is right! The bold win!"

I think on reaosn for the problem is the obsession of the authorities for making every intersection a controlled one. So people have little occasion to apply the rule.

Yep. Also, we are increasingly becoming a population that by and large expects to be told what to do. Commonsense, personal responsibility and thought don't come into it. So much so, the refrain when "things go wrong" is: "There should be a law against it! We're too stupid to figure it out for ourselves - tell us what to do!"

And this is what makes it hilariously funny when a set of traffic lights fails ...s uddenly people go absolutely nuts with fear and confusion. IT'S NOT THAT HARD, PEOPLE!

Yeah, it is. See my previous comment.

Also 4-way stops.

The 1977 "new" road rules were intended to remove the ambiguity in the previous rules. (I mean, "courtesy prevails", come on!) The thing that convinced me this is not necessarily a good thing was living in Fort Collins, Colorado for 4 years. That place was full of 4-way stops and for a while I couldn't work out what the priority rules were.

It's brilliant!
When I was in SF in Christmas 2006, I thought, "Hmmm... I can see how this basically works - give way to the left. But what happens when there's 4 cars waiting?"
So, I asked a bicycle cop in San Jose, and he said the same thing as you: "the car that arrives first, goes first. If two or more arrive at once, then it's down to courtesy". It works so well!
Of course, unspoken is the veiled threat, "Don't give way to me, bee-yatch, and I might just shoot you!"
Actually, I'm sure that's not the case. I found driving in California SO pleasant and unstressful, as almost everyone drove so courteously. (The one exception being a BMW driver in a hurry at peak rush hour, Friday night in LA on the freeway, who blasted me with the horn as I tried to change lanes, and he came through at 30mph or more faster than all the other traffic, and didn't want me to impede his progress as he weved from lane to lane. That's one (1!) incident in 9 days of driving, including driving onto the wrong side of the road coming out of the rental car place.

It comes back to Ixion's earlier comment about over-regulating. In NZ we expect someone else to be rtesponsible for telling us what we have to do, and all common sense and courtesy soon goes out the window.

Eggs Zachary!

Same with that Dutch town that got rid of all its traffic lights a year or so ago. Suddenly people had to pay attention to what other traffic and pedestrians were doing. Brought their road toll way down by removing the regulations and returning the responsibility to the road users.

Amazing, innit?
Similar phenomena have been oobserved where roads have been straightened, the perceived risk goes down, people pay less attention, and the accident rate goes up.

There are surprisingly (or perhaps not) few accidents on narrow, winding, unsealed ski-field roads with no guard rails. You just *know* that if you fuck up, it's a long way down!

[Renegade]

i thought the person trying to enter an main arterial road from a side road had to give way to those turning off the main road into the side road, stops congestion on the main road iwould of thought.

[Ixion]

Oh dear. I fear you are showing your age. That has not been the law for MANY years . 1948 Transport Act I suspect.

[yungatart]

i thought the person trying to enter an main arterial road from a side road had to give way to those turning off the main road into the side road, stops congestion on the main road iwould of thought.

Well, you thought wrong.
For safety's sake, I suggest you familiarise yourself with an updated version of the road code.

[Skyryder]

By the way, folks, this was discussed at some length in April this year

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=71364

The previous government considered changing the law a few years ago but decided not to. With the change of government, and a revision of the road rules being under way, it looks like a change will be considered again. There was an item about it on the TV last night (Campbell Live?). It sounds like there's a lot of support for a change.

Shit even I agree with this. Silly rule never should have been changed in the first place.

Skyryder