Learning lines

[Winston001]

The Stranger hit the nail on the head.

It's all relative to your ability. A lot of people have a tendency to attack corners with lots of speed and find themselves doing the opposite. Fast in, slow out. Often that's combined with braking mid corner or running wide on exit. Not to mention the "oh shit" moments if the corner tightens.

Believe me I'm not disagreeing or arguing, just struggling to understand it.

The following comments apply to roads where you can't see the whole corner until you are near the apex. Plenty of roads like that in NZ. On sweeping open roads I don't usually have a problem.

I have a mate who is vastly more experienced than myself. Even riding a Ducati I cannot keep up with him on a windy road, always end up braking just as I arrive at the corner. He isn't going slow into it, yet he gets around and zooms ahead - on a 650.

The reason I brake is that I don't know the corner, can't see around it and want to feel safe. No idea how sharp it is, whether a car/truck/tractor is coming etc. Does that make me a wimp? - cos that's the way I feel watching other riders and reading on KB about riding.

Its not possible to scrape sidestands etc going slow into corners yet on here we regularly read about scraping. Personally I've only ever scraped a boot, in North Canterbury at 150k which was rather exciting. But otherwise it doesn't happen.

My point is that always going slow into unknown corners and fast out works for safety, but other riders don't do it. So how do they know better that the road is clear or doesn't tighten?


In fact I asked my mate this exact question after we'd run through a tight country road south of Tauranga. His answer was that he and the other bike just expected the road to be clear......

[mister.koz]

There's allot of good advice here, one thing i would add is that if you don't feel safe cornering at high speed then don't.... work your way up to it. The best way to put a bike down is to ride beyond your personal limits.

If you get a fright or go beyond your limits, you are ill-equipped to handle unexpected things. A pothole or a gravel patch means you have to adjust your line slightly, if you freak out then you have less chance of making that decision correctly.

I have a similar problem, my bike was designed, built and then re-engineered to be very fast. My ability is WELL behind my bike so i end up going through corners and thinking "i could have done that allot faster". As time goes on and advice is accepted from people in our group, my cornering speed has increased somewhat but only with my ability. Quite a few times people tell me i am corner too slow for them to follow, sweet as they can pass, meet them at the next stop.

Best advice i can suggest is to keep on learning, there's no easy answer. Figure out the dynamic's of cornering and practice cornering on familiar roads so you can carefully increase your speed. Also, ride to the vanishing point, if you can't stop in your visual range, you are riding too fast.

Quasi once said in a thread:

If you can't see around the corner then you need to go slow, what about the tractor parked out of view

[discotex]

Believe me I'm not disagreeing or arguing, just struggling to understand it.

I'd assumed that so no worries mate.

The reason I brake is that I don't know the corner, can't see around it and want to feel safe. No idea how sharp it is, whether a car/truck/tractor is coming etc. Does that make me a wimp? - cos that's the way I feel watching other riders and reading on KB about riding.

It's probably one of two possibilities.

a) your line isn't apexing late enough. If you apex later you can see better and will also have faster corner exit speed as you can open the throttle earlier. Knowing you have some room for error can help speed you up ironically.

b) you're being rightly cautious (which is up to you how you choose how to feel about it).

My point is that always going slow into unknown corners and fast out works for safety, but other riders don't do it. So how do they know better that the road is clear or doesn't tighten?

They don't... Riding assuming the corner is clear would have to be the leading cause of single vehicle crashes.

The track is where you ride like the road is always clear and the corners predicable.

Then again no-one said you have to go in slow. Just at a speed where you can deal with shit happening depending on your ability. Slow for a very experienced rider will be faster than slow for you for example.

In fact I asked my mate this exact question after we'd run through a tight country road south of Tauranga. His answer was that he and the other bike just expected the road to be clear......

Personally I hope the road will be clear but I leave a margin of error in case it's not. But, I don't leave the massive margin I would if I assumed the way was blocked. It's about a balance of risk vs likelyhood. E.g. if I smell shit I expect cows around the bend. If it's a long weekend I expect cops to be out so speed is more closely watched etc etc etc.

I also save the big lean angle for corners I can see right through or know well.

[quickbuck]

So how do they know better that the road is clear or doesn't tighten?

You never know if the road is clear if you can't see around the corner.

As discotex said, you have a margin of error if it all goes to poo.
This can be a very small margin at times. At the end of the day, it is also a bit of confidence in your ability to either stand it up, or drop it in some more to avoid the obstacle.... Or, take the risk. After all that is what makes the twisty bits exciting.... A rush if you will.

As for, how do you know if it tightens?
Easy really.
You should be looking at the "Vanishing Point".
This is the point where the left side of the road "appears" to meet the right.
You should be looking at this point to make a smooth corner.
Now, if the vanishing point comes closer to you the corner is tightening up; Back off, and tip it in some more.
If the vanishing point gets further away, hit the gas, if you feel comfortable... and it is safe to do so.

I have posted this somewhere before.... not sure where.

But try it out, and see how you go.
If you really want to improve corner speed in a safe place, then get yourself to Taupo on the 2.2k track, and go around without touching the brakes.
Of course, use them if you have to, but you will be surprised how quick you can take those tighter corners at the end of the day.

[Winston001]

You never know if the road is clear if you can't see around the corner....

You should be looking at the "Vanishing Point".
This is the point where the left side of the road "appears" to meet the right.
You should be looking at this point to make a smooth corner.
Now, if the vanishing point comes closer to you the corner is tightening up; Back off, and tip it in some more.
If the vanishing point gets further away, hit the gas, if you feel comfortable... and it is safe to do so.

Cheers and understood. I've learned about apexes and the vanishing point from reading KB and apply those techniques. Still learning though and one mistake I make is to stand the bike up slightly when the corner sharpens, in order to slow. Need to trust the bike cos I know logically it will go over a lot further but my heart hasn't been convinced yet.

I've ridden for years but only intermittently and never had a performance bike before. Commonsense says finding a curvy road and/or going to a track day to practise on known corners is the best way forward.

The other change I've just made is lifting the rear of the Duke which increases the front wheel responsiveness. The ST4 is a very stable bike out of the factory but it is set-up for touring with heavy steering in slow corners. Even one short ride has shown the bike going over much further than I expected on a roundabout so all good.

Finally, have to admit that cornering is great fun but dropping an $11,000 bike really bothers me. I notice people here referring to multiple bins. That's beyond my expectation of motorcycling.

[The Stranger:Me]

going to a track day to practise on known corners is the best way forward.

This is one area where a trackday reeeaaalllly helps.

Do you kiss your inside mirror?
Even if you are not comfortable hanging off you can get your torso weight inside the corner.

[Winston001]

This is one area where a trackday reeeaaalllly helps.

Do you kiss your inside mirror?
Even if you are not comfortable hanging off you can get your torso weight inside the corner.

Actually I am comfortable hanging off, tend to do that more than lean the bike. I'm sure it looks silly from behind. Yep, I've been keeping an eye open for a track day at Teretonga.

[jrandom]

I notice people here referring to multiple bins. That's beyond my expectation of motorcycling.

It happens, but there's no rule saying it has to.

I haven't had a single bin that wasn't my own silly fault in one way or another; the extrapolation that it should be possible to never bin if one is not silly seems logical.

And you seem pretty sensible.

[fizbin]

With all due respect to Dawn and the others that have given of their valuable time. Whilst it is possible to practise specific skills it is not possible in the short time available and with a transient class from week to week to bring those skills together and demonstrate how each piece fits in to the puzzle. There is no way to assess each individual and move them to a logical conclusion, it can't be done in the current format.

I think that like a trackday, the NASS is an excellent idea and allows you to tick off some boxes.

You already know my advice.

I don't think anyone would take offense. i recommend it to all newer rider Sollie just so they can give it ago. it is not for everyone, but the one that do find that it works for them do get a hell of a lot out of it. meh everyone learns in different ways i found the NASS (or AWNR as it was when i started) really helped me com to grips with alot of the basics.

[The Stranger:Me]

I don't think anyone would take offense. i recommend it to all newer rider Sollie just so they can give it ago. it is not for everyone, but the one that do find that it works for them do get a hell of a lot out of it. meh everyone learns in different ways i found the NASS (or AWNR as it was when i started) really helped me com to grips with alot of the basics.

Yeah, I already got all that.
As I noted, it certainly ticks some of the boxes.

Let me put it another way.
What is your frame of reference?

How many track days have you done?
How did you find RRRS?
Have you been through pass rite/cbta?
Have you had one on one instruction with a professional instructor (other than for BHS)?

How did you find these things - pros and cons?

[fizbin]

Yeah, I already got all that.
As I noted, it certainly ticks some of the boxes.

Let me put it another way.
What is your frame of reference?

How many track days have you done?
How did you find RRRS?
Have you been through pass rite/cbta?
Have you had one on one instruction with a professional instructor (other than for BHS)?

How did you find these things - pros and cons?

As i stated in my first post. I have never done a track day so i can't even begin to comment on the pros and cons of them.
The RRRS course i am looking into currently but am having issues with it clashing with famibly life. I am hoping once the school holidays are over and I get back to normal I will be able to get along to one of those.
No I have not been though the Pass Rite/Cbta course
No I have not had the benefit of one on one instruction. as I said above some people learn in different ways and I have found in the past that one on one instructions have not appealed to me and the way I learn.
I don't presume to tell people how they should ride as with my limited experance it would be wrong! there are far more qualified people out there who could do it far far far better than I can like your self for example. ( I have been there on nights were you have been to the NASS and you Knowledge far out does most peoples.)
All I was doing in my original post was to suggest a way in which Prettybillie might be able to answer some of her questions. Dawn, Richard and Mark are a fountain of knowledge and are all to happy to share this. anyways that is enough dribble from me.

[Winston001]

It happens, but there's no rule saying it has to.

I haven't had a single bin that wasn't my own silly fault in one way or another; the extrapolation that it should be possible to never bin if one is not silly seems logical.

And you seem pretty sensible.

Cheers but not so sensible that I'd give the bike up.


Now - whats all this talk on the thread about NASS, RRRS, Pass Rite, CBTA etc etc? Unfortunately these mean nothing to me - and maybe others.

[motodrummer]

The worst vice is advice, i would suggest riding with some one experienced, -not the supersonic type! I try not to use brakes to much, engine braking is pretty effective as long as you're in the correct gear. Front brake is ok to use in corners, just dont sqeeze to hard. Go easy, you will learn everything in time, ride to survive. Full time rider for 25years.

[The Stranger:Me]

I make riding without touching the brakes a regular exercise on the road. Roll on, roll off, happiness and contentment shortly follow.

Yeah, I notice a few people saying similar.
I tried it through Woodcocks the other evening based on this recommendation and waited for enlightenment.
I must be doing something wrong as I'm still waiting.

I found that I didn't twist the throttle as hard or for as long as I normally would have and was thus was slower than usual. On the way back in the dark I found it downright dangerous, and I must confess using the brake occasionally. Neither one did it for me really.

What am I missing here oh wise one?

[jrandom]

What am I missing here oh wise one?

It doesn't work in the tight stuff. Once you get to 45kph marked corners and below it's just awkward. Woodcocks is entirely the wrong place for the exercise.

And, of course it's slower than using the brakes, but the point isn't to go fast.