Researching 70Km L-Plate restriction safety

[Tony]

No. The statement "research indicates blah blah blah" is a standard persuasion technique. This is used to add credibility to his argument in such a way that it is not questioned by the listener. What research? By who? What was the purpose of the research - to persuade? Persuade who into believing what? Who commissioned this research?

You get the drift I'm sure.. Watch out what you believe.

Note! I am commenting on the persuasion technique, not the 70k limit.

Steve

Harry Duynhoven was quoting directly from a Monash University study. The Study is online and you can find a link to it from the LTNZ web site. The study is also referenced in the paper "Down with Speed" published by ACC and also referenced to by the LTNZ. The LTNZ web site also has several other safety comments on their web site telling motorcyclists to matching speed with other traffic, etc, that would seem to directly contradict the 70 km/h rule. It's a case of very mixed messages.

Harry Duynhoven the ex minister of transport had announced that they were going to abolish this law... but the New Minister of Transport Steven Joyce when directly asked has declined to say what his stance on this issue is. In the meantime more Motorcyclists are forced by this law to risk their lives doing something that everyone concerned knows is significantly dangerous.

[CookMySock]

I think the only time I have seen an L-Plater ticketed for over 70k is when they were doing something they shouldn't have been... Splitting or filtering too quickly, passing in tight areas, or other stuff that should be left to the experienced riders. The fuzz has a good idea what an experienced rider on a powerful bike can safely do, and to a large extent they leave these riders alone while they ride the grey area of the law. Long may this remain, in my opinion.

However, L-Platers are not this smart, and there is little that the fuzz can do while they similarly explore the same grey area of the law that experienced riders get to, and I think it's important that L-Platers can get a ticket if they do it at speeds over 70km/hr, and if the 70k learner limit is the only way they can enforce that, then I say let it stay.


Steve

[quickbuck]

@70k rule, it's only there for cornering, as unless the total newbie can can countersteer with the bars, they are up shit creek in a tightish corner and anything above newbie-pace. 90km/hr in a straight line is trivial to anyone at any basic level of experience.

Steve

You just made that up.
Cornering speed had nothing to do with it.

It was in fact introduced to keep learner riders in urban areas to practice.
There was no thought of them actually having a requirement to venture out on the open road. It was even recommended you don't!

The problem I see with that logic it that you are putting noobs in harms way of more traffic, not less.... Okay, there might be more on the motorway, but there are plenty of roads around the country that are brilliant to learn to ride a motorcycle.

At the end of the day, changing lanes, giveway rules, traffic lights and round abouts should be sussed within a week!

The real learning to ride comes on the maneuvering of the motorcycle at speed. Learners need to learn the rate in which to process information. Take their time..... This can be done on a quiet road at reduced speed if need be, but on the main roads with other road users 100k is the way to go.
At the end of the day, you have to learn to ride in that too....

[scottjpalmer]

Hi all

I emailed Steven Joyce (Minister of Transport) last month and he has replied today.

"This change is being considered as part of an update of the Land Transport Rule: Driver Licensing 1999, and that the public will be consulted on the changes to it later this year."

[RocKai]

Blah Blah Blah...Blah di blah di blah

consulted on the changes to it later this year

They said that last year

He probably copy and paste that same sentence since last year for a thousand times a day

Just keep your L-plate on, when my mate lead on his L-plate, it's a "Leader Plate".
When you carry your missus, it's the "Love Plate".
When you're happy, it's the "LoL Plate".
It's also a "Leave me alone Plate".
Use it to the conditions

[Tony]

It was in fact introduced to keep learner riders in urban areas to practice.
There was no thought of them actually having a requirement to venture out on the open road. It was even recommended you don't!

You just made that up too!

In my research I haven't been able to find out why it was introduced. Any ideas we invent for the reasoning behind it are just that...inventions.

Of course if you can point to anything that actually states why it was introduced I would be most grateful.

[Ixion]

Sigh. Before the GDLS , we had what were called provisional (probationary ?) licences. Cost five shillings.

Rock up to the snake shop, pay five bob, answer a bunch of questions about the road code (tougher ones than now, and they could invent them on the spot, no multi choice), convince the snake it wasn't really you he's seen riding around for the last month, and (maybe, cos snakes was mean and unpredictable, and accountable to no-one), he'd give you a provisional licence.

Toad into the Post office (no Post Shops then we had the real thing), and get a P rego sticker to stick on the number plate.

And you were good to do, start learning. Only one rule really - restricted to 30 mph (50kph) areas. No open road at all. (no motorways in them days). Of course everyone ignored that rule, but that was the law

Now, back then they didn't have such a variety of speed limits. Only 30mph (50kph) and open road 55mph (90kph). Then later, they got all carried away and introduced 70kph zones, and 80 kph zones. Dunno why, always thought it was just complicating things.

So , when the GDLS came out ,and they (TPTB) started discussing the 'L' licence , someone said "Oh, and restricted to 50kph areas, like the provisional licence, of course". And someone else said "Oh, wait, we have some of those new 70kph speed limit areas now, how about we allow them in those too?". "Oh, OK then , restricted to 70kph".
I think the "area" bit got lost in the drafting shop.

The 70kph was intended to be a *relaxation* of the old rule.

Was a bit simpler then, too, you didn't have to wait any specific time before your practical test (only one test, and you could ride any size bike even on a P licence). In theory you could get your P licence in the morning and do the practical test half an hour later. A few did, though it was unwise , the snakes would usually fail you if you did that, for being a smart aleck (there were a couple of general rules back then - snakes could do pretty much anything they wanted, and being a smart aleck was a VeryBadTHing, certain to cost much pain and money- pounds then , not dollars).

That's where it came from.

[Tony]

.

So , when the GDLS came out ,and they (TPTB) started discussing the 'L' licence , someone said "Oh, and restricted to 50kph areas, like the provisional licence, of course". And someone else said "Oh, wait, we have some of those new 70kph speed limit areas now, how about we allow them in those too?". "Oh, OK then , restricted to 70kph".
I think the "area" bit got lost in the drafting shop.

The 70kph was intended to be a *relaxation* of the old rule.

Nice speculation.

I remember the old scheme certainly a lot easier than now.

I think the new scheme is much smarter/safer for us.

I never bothered to convert to a full license and when they changed to the new lifetime licenses it was left off my new license.

So when I recently wanted to ride a bike again they couldn't find anything in the archives so I had to go right thru the new scheme again.

[Ixion]

Well, I think your 'old' scheme cannot be as old as mine, because the provisional licence only lasted for a short time . It may have been only one month, but a few months at most. Six months - seems vaguely familiar. Then you had to go back and pay another 5/- for another one, and get another sticker. And, I think, answer another lot of questions . I think there may have been a limit to the number of times you could renew it too. There was no conversion to a full licence. Just a licence. You had a licence , or you didn't . The provisonal thing didn't count as a licence it was just a permit.

Perhaps you are thinking about the later scheme, when they introduced learner lciences, but you convert the elarner licence to a full one after a certain time without another test? I'm talking much earlier, around the 1950s maybe 1960s.

[unrealone]

I suggest writing to the new transport mininster to find out the progress/state of the changes proposed by Duynhoven.

By well established convention, ministers (or more accurately their relevant Government departments) have to answer every piece of mail (even email) that is addressed to their offices within 20 working days.

In fact you could ask most of the questions to the minister directly and see what they say in the reply.

Ha ha ha... *looks at partner who works in parliament*

[Tony]

Blah Blah Blah...Blah di blah di blah

They said that last year

He probably copy and paste that same sentence since last year for a thousand times a day

The rule phase is still stuck in Yellow Phase (rule being drafted for public consultation) where it was last year. It is evident that changing this rule which endangers learner motorcyclists is a low priority. (I have a full license). Maybe BRONZ could give us an update on what they see the progress on this being.

For current progress see http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rul...er-licensing-6

[ecnal]

check the MOT website, the 70k rule is going

[Harvd]

check the MOT website, the 70k rule is going

linky pleeeeese me 2 simple 4 this intermabeb

[Tony]

So , when the GDLS came out ,and they (TPTB) started discussing the 'L' licence , someone said "Oh, and restricted to 50kph areas, like the provisional licence, of course". And someone else said "Oh, wait, we have some of those new 70kph speed limit areas now, how about we allow them in those too?". "Oh, OK then , restricted to 70kph".
I think the "area" bit got lost in the drafting shop.

OK I have done a bit more research on this and can confirm Ixion would apperar to have it exactly right. However I have not been able to source any documetns showing why it was introduced.

The following was sourced from my correspondent at NZTA.

"The lower seed limit appears to have been set by clause 28(d) of the Transport (Driver Licensing) regulations 1987. At this stage, there were only learner and full license stages."

The provision was then carried across into paragraph 16(1)(d) of the Land Transport (drvier Licensing) Rule 1999, with the only change being to add a reference to the practical test for a restricted license.

I had also requested from NZTA if they had any research to show that the 70Km/h restriction had any safety merits. They have confirmed that they and the Ministry of Transport know of no such research.

I had also requested an opinion from the Hon Stephen Joyce. He has replied that he is awaiting the results of the consultation process that is looking at the proposed law change to remove the 70km speed restriction before forming and expressing an opinion.

[Tony]

check the MOT website, the 70k rule is going

I think we are still along way away from getting this rule changed. Can you provide a link to your source for this comment?

My undersatnding that the law is still stuck at the stage of producing draft legislation. (Where it has been for over a year since the then Hon Harry Duynhoven first proposed it).

Why is it not progressing you ask?

No statistics are kept or created on how many riders have been killed due to this stupid law. We all know how dangerous it is but the people who make the laws don't have any visibility of this. I understand that Harry Duynhoven rode/rides a bike but Steven Joyce does not.