Paper roads

[Rosie]

Has Any one done this recently?. I went from Putaruru end yesterday onto Leslie Rd. Cool road but gate 500 metres past Galaxie Rd was Locked.Is it always Locked?.Went down Galaxie instead to main Mamaku Rd. Crossed main Rd and carried on. Galaxie gate was open so I followed right thru to McClarens Falls Road. I enjoyed it so much that I turned around and went back the same way. A top way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

That's odd. I've been through Cecil/Leslie roads several times this summer (not since January though, from memory), and the gates on the main/legal road have never been closed or locked.

[Skinny_Birdman]

Regarding the 40 km/h. I was referring to ones ability to read a GPS, follow the mapped line and keep upright while riding the bike on rough terrain, not the GPS's ability to keep a lock!!!

Ah, I see. Fair enough - so if you could multi-task, it should be possible. I know a subset of people who reckon they can do that....

[Ixion]

Email sent to Rotorua DC (nico.claassen@rdc.govt.nz) (purportedly the culprits) regarding Cecil/Leslie Road

Dear Mr Classen

I write to you about Cecil Road, Mamaku on behalf of BRONZ , the Bikers Rights Organisation of New Zealand.

You will be aware that following complaints by Mr Russell Orr , regarding the illegal stopping of Cecil and Leslie Roads by Carter Harvey Holt, Rotorua Council and South Waikato District council , the matter was referred to the Ombudsman. After investigation by his department it was determined that Cecil Road and Leslie Road are public roads, CHH have no authority over them, and there is no legal authority to erect locked gates upon them. Ombudsman's Reference A12108.

In accordance with undertakings given to the Ombudsman 31 August 2006 , the illegal locks on the gates at the Mamaku end of Cecil Road and the Putaruru end of Leslie Road were removed , though the gates remained

BRONZ has recently had numerous complaints from people trying to use these legal public roads to journey from Putaruru to Mamaku, who find, on reaching the Mamaku end of Cecil Road that locks have been replaced on the gate. This is very vexatious , since they are then obliged to turn round and retrace their journey al the way back to Putaruru.

We are advised that the Rotorua District council is responsible for these locks. We submit that the Council has no right or power to exclude the public from a public road , and request that these locks be removed immediately.

Yours sincerely
Les Mason
President

[monchopper]

Hear hear! In the course of my work I frequently come across parcels of stopped road that are now in private ownership, and if you don't have access to Terraview etc you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
An interesting discussion, this....

I'm finding all this interesting/ball breaking. I spoke to a friend who has dealt with a few of these issues in the courts and I'm still none the wiser.
He said that he's had some cases where a paper road once existed (ie dug up from the archives and not on a cadastral map) still has some legal ramifications today.
Another non PC thing he mentioned was that if you've got a map, map out a route and follow that route and YOU believe that YOU are on the a public road (whether you are or not), that the chances of being prosected for trespass under NZ law are low/none. (OK for a 1 off I know and not sustainable as opening up new terrain and not something I'd endorse, but interesting non the less).

[Skinny_Birdman]

...some cases where a paper road once existed (ie dug up from the archives and not on a cadastral map) still has some legal ramifications today.
Another non PC thing he mentioned was that if you've got a map, map out a route and follow that route and YOU believe that YOU are on the a public road (whether you are or not), that the chances of being prosected for trespass under NZ law are low/none. (OK for a 1 off I know and not sustainable as opening up new terrain and not something I'd endorse, but interesting non the less).

I'd be inclined to agree with the first of those. There are bound to be odd paper roads on Crown Grants etc that have never made it into the digital cadastral record. You'd have to search pretty hard to find them though, and to ensure that they had never been stopped or reverted to some other form of tenure. Such searches eat up a lot of time (read:money) but are fascinating. On the second point, its not something I would care to test myself, and you'd want to arm yourself with some fairly solid evidence of how you mapped out the route, if you were going to try it... I'm no lawyerist.
There are a number of roads (I have been involved in stopping one such) of which the best boundary definition is a Topo Plan (this is a hand drawn Topo Plan of a wide area, drawn back in ye olde days - as distinct from a Topo Map such as NZMS 260 or NZMS 1) or some similarly elderly record. These roads are very difficult to reproduce on the ground, if you follow me, and surveyors revert to all sorts of evidence to determine where the actual road lies. I must admit I am far too inexperienced in my field to comment much beyond this, as this is a fairly arcane area of the profession. If anyone has any specific questions, however, I am surrounded by about 70 years combined experience in just such issues, so I'm sure I can find get some answers.

Cheers
A

[Winston001]

I spoke to a friend who has dealt with a few of these issues in the courts and I'm still none the wiser.
He said that he's had some cases where a paper road once existed (ie dug up from the archives and not on a cadastral map) still has some legal ramifications today.

Interesting but logical. Just because an old (meaning 1850 -1880) road hasn't made it into the digital record yet, doesn't mean it's disappeared. Its just waiting for a new survey of the area.

Another non PC thing he mentioned was that if you've got a map, map out a route and follow that route and YOU believe that YOU are on the a public road (whether you are or not), that the chances of being prosected for trespass under NZ law are low/none. (OK for a 1 off I know and not sustainable as opening up new terrain and not something I'd endorse, but interesting non the less).

Well yes. Trespass can only occurr after you are warned off so being caught the first time is no basis for a trespass prosecution. Plus I think the land owner has to identify you and hand or post you a written notice. Plus the police generally aren't interested in nuisance trespass prosecutions without a very good reason.

[monchopper]

I'll give a full account of the road in question once the issue has been resolved.

Update: The forestry company (Selwyn Plantation Board Limited SPBL) haven't taken the locks off the gates inspite of being told by local district council. I spoke to the Access guy @ SPBL this week, as we are going through the roads in question this weekend (lock or no lock ), to make sure the locks are off and he told me that they're still on. He informed me that several guys on the SPBL board are also on the Selwyn District Council and they're going to see what they can do to keep the gates locked.

Anyway he kindly offered me the key for the weekend........ to a public road

The roads are Dalethorpe Road and Bell Hill Road.

[cooneyr]

Update: The forestry company (Selwyn Plantation Board Limited SPBL) haven't taken the locks off the gates inspite of being told by local district council. I spoke to the Access guy @ SPBL this week, as we are going through the roads in question this weekend (lock or no lock ), to make sure the locks are off and he told me that they're still on. He informed me that several guys on the SPBL board are also on the Selwyn District Council and they're going to see what they can do to keep the gates locked.

Anyway he kindly offered me the key for the weekend........ to a public road

The roads are Dalethorpe Road and Bell Hill Road.

Two points - you appear to have an admission that they roads are public roads and you also need to keep an eye out for any changes in the legal status of the roads.

A change in legal status of the road will require public consultation which will be your only formal opportunity to object. If you want to go down this path dont be a plonker and go ripping up the forest though as you are simply giving them a reason to perminatly close the roads. Alternatively if enough of us use the road then there is a compelling case to keep it public and keep it open.

Take some pics of your trip so we know if the road is worth keeping open so we can keep riding it. They look like a couple of dead ends to me???

Cheers R

[monchopper]

Two points - you appear to have an admission that they roads are public roads and you also need to keep an eye out for any changes in the legal status of the roads.

A change in legal status of the road will require public consultation which will be your only formal opportunity to object. If you want to go down this path dont be a plonker and go ripping up the forest though as you are simply giving them a reason to perminatly close the roads. Alternatively if enough of us use the road then there is a compelling case to keep it public and keep it open.

Take some pics of your trip so we know if the road is worth keeping open so we can keep riding it. They look like a couple of dead ends to me???

Cheers R

The two roads are kinda dead ends although they are joined by the selwyn river which has a paper road along it AND an easement (queens chain?). I'll let you know if it can be made into a loop worth doing. (We often ride to the Waimak Gorge bridge and were looking for some additional rides up that way)

We have permission from the adjoining landowner to use some of there farm tracks as well.

[monchopper]

These 2 roads may be of no real use to us (Watch this space). But thats not the point.

The point is if we don't challenge these guys to get the gates unlocked that shouldn't be locked, then we'll never know if roads such as these 2 are of any value to us.

[Woodman]

Surely the guys on the council and on the spbl board will declare a conflict of interest

[cooneyr]

Surely the guys on the council and on the spbl board will declare a conflict of interest

is right!

[monchopper]

Update:
Last weekend we rode the roads mentioned as part of a 2 day ride we did through to Lake Clearwater via Glenfalloch/Lake Heron. They are linked by the Selwyn river which has a formed track along it between the 2 roads. The track crosses the Selwyn river several times (I went for a lie down on 1 crossing ). The loop is a great ride and is a hidden treasure of wilderness. I'm still battling with the Selwyn Plantation Board to get the locks off the gates.
For the Christchurch/Canterbury guys who want to explore some new terrain then it forms a good little ride. Up the Waimak from Chch to the gorge, pie and a pint in Springfield then a 30 odd km loop through the plantation/Selwyn river and back via Pig Saddle Road. I will post the gpx file of the route if anyone interested.

[cooneyr]

... I will post the gpx file of the route if anyone interested.

I'm keen for a copy for my collection of files to go on my web site. Email address is in my signature below.

Cheers R

[Skinny_Birdman]

The two roads are kinda dead ends although they are joined by the selwyn river which has a paper road along it AND an easement (queens chain?).

Warning: Anorak Content...

I'm going to be a pedant here, but the closest you are likely to get to the 'Queen's Chain' along the river in question is probably the aforementioned road (not sure about the easement???). To my knowledge, the 'Queen's Chain' where NZ is concerned is a fondly held, but largely unsubstantiated myth. If you want the good oil then try this but the short story is that there are a number of different types of strips along waterways, including those held under the Conservation Act 1987 and the RMA 1991 (which are probably not much use to bikers, as they are not rights of way), but these strips do not exist over every waterway, and are often as difficult as paper roads (or more so) to find on the ground. This is all moot in this particular instance, as there is a nice paper road on either side of the river, so a nice wide corridor of public land to ride on. I just get antsy when I see references to the Queen's Chain. I'll get me coat.....