New MNZ 2007 F3 rules

[cowpoos]

Yes, as SVS indicates, only the very fastest of the 150 riders can compete in Superbike Lite. Putting these bikes together makes some very large speed differences which is dangerous.

It is also good management, and a safety issue to have a qualifying standard if the differences between first and last are too great. VMCC must act if they perceive that safety is at risk.

This could mean riders being excluded from the races. But remember that this is club racing and that VMCC will do anything that is possible for those riders to ride in another class or race. This could mean clubman, or not.

Perhaps we can look at that from a positive viewpoint. Is it a good thing that we have so many people turing up that we must have qualifying? Overseas this is normal. I think it is a good thing. It also provides those riders who do not qualify a goal to achieve for next time, rather than simply riding around as if it were a glorified trackday.

Qualifying most certainly can be applied at nationals, but we tend to have so few entries that riders are included regardless. This was clearly the case in Superbike at Manfeild this year where riders were lapped after 4-5 laps of a 20-odd lap race. Tell me if this is a good thing, or that simply filling the grid is more appropriate.

you know what I think would be a positive step forward!!!

letting the superbikes run in supersport races!!! like they do with us to get more track/race time!!!! now where would the harm be in that????

[Racey Rider]

Thanks for your comments. Are you a Vic club member Steveyb? Sorry, I just aren't aware who you are as yet.

Yes, as SVS indicates, only the very fastest of the 150 riders can compete in Superbike Lite.

I don't see that indicated anywhere.

It is also good management, and a safety issue to have a qualifying standard if the differences between first and last are too great. VMCC must act if they perceive that safety is at risk.

I'm fine with that.

This could mean riders being excluded from the races. But remember that this is club racing and that VMCC will do anything that is possible for those riders to ride in another class or race. This could mean clubman, or not.

Thats not what the written Winter series amendments say.
It clearly says riders that don't meet the minimum lap times for that class will be out, and Not placed in another class.

Perhaps we can look at that from a positive viewpoint. Is it a good thing that we have so many people Turning up that we must have qualifying? Overseas this is normal. I think it is a good thing. It also provides those riders who do not qualify a goal to achieve for next time, rather than simply riding around as if it were a glorified trackday.

Ok. I'm not so worried about being kicked out of F3 myself, But as a Vic club member, I'd hate to see some newbie turn up with his(her) 400cc for his(her) first race day, only to be told,
"you can't race today as your too slow".
What can be done to stop that happening?
Why should F3 over flow not go into Clubmans?

Racey

[steveyb]

Hi. Well, yes, it is a bit odd to hide behind anonymity. I don't know you either. I have been a VMCC member since 1997, committee member from 1999 to 2004, Secretary for 2002-2004. National championship racer since 1990 in 250 Prodn, 125GP and 250GP. Have been involved with running the VMCC meetings for several years, and good friends with VMCC Pres, Sec, Clerk of Course and committee members, so I feel that I am qualified to comment.
Let me try and be clear here, the VMCC meetings are about INCLUSION!! Not sticking to hard and fast rules, to qualifying times, to number boards, to all this and that.
BUT, you need to have a structure that makes the events as safe as possible and as fair as possible. We know what happened in 2005, so removing any possibility for something similar to occur again must be priority #1.
So, the next issue then are the riders choices. The rider chooses, for whatever reason, to ride on a particular bike. This bike and rider will then fit appropriately somewhere within the class/meeting structure.
This is the choice you make. The structure that VMCC run currently has been thought through for many years, AND will continue to EVOLVE as bikes and rider desires change. Look at what happened in 2004 with the changes to race lengths, mixing up track layouts etc. Prior to that it was almost the same thing round after round, year after year. So things do change, but in an evolutionary manner, not at the beck and call of a couple of riders.
So, the qualifying thing. Your response above did not answer the questions posed regarding qualifying and feild sizes. The new rider turing up for their first raceday will likely NOT be in F3 will they, but more likely in CLUBMAN to start with, won't they. So, if you wish to argue the point, be accurate with your arguement. People who know me will know that I can be!

To continue, this newbie rider should they enter F3 at VMCC and are too slow to qualify will NOT be told they cannot ride. Where would the sense be in that? That rider will be perfectly capable of riding in Clubman A or even Clubman B and will be invited to do so. Why would they not? All of this is Suplimentary regulations notwithstanding, as the organisers retain the right to modify the event as requirements dictate.
An experienced rider on the other hand, might just be told they did not qualify and thus are excluded. This is a challenge to that rider to improve, not a judgement on their abilities (even though it is objective). This is also the probable reality of our racing going forward, when too many people want to do it. This is the reality in Australia, UK and USA even at CLUB racing. It does not put people off, it makes them try harder next time!!

Note here that in 2005/06 Clubman was split into two groups due to laptime differences. Is this bad?? Does this stigmatise riders because they happen to be in Clubman B so must be REAAAALLLLY slow?? I think not. They are riding and racing and having fun and improving, in a SAFE and FAIR environment.

It can only be GOOD that we have so many riders turning up that we need to have a qualifying standard.
Remember, at VMCC you will NOT be excluded, but a place will be found for you. But also remember, that you make the choice what bike you will ride, for what ever reason. This means that you have made a choice as to where you fit in the structure that is provided. For 150 bikes this means Streetstock. For Superbikes this means Superbike. There are other bikes that can fit across classes. If this is what you want to do, then you need to find a machine that will allow you to do this.

I won't get into Bracket Racing, which is another possible structure, as there are many +'s and -'s each way.

Now, just to finish this treatise, if you are a VMCC member and believe that a newbie would be told they can't race, then you are out of touch with what the club is about. That said, the club is in trouble (as it often is). The numbers of people who want to be involved in running it are falling and the people that are doing it now want a break and also want to teach new people to do it. If you believe that the structure is not appropriate, then you should be involved in evolving it (that is assuming you are not already, but your comments suggest otherwise). AGM is in May, come and play a part.

If the VMCC club were to close up shop and a professional promoter were to take over the events then you would get less of a say in how the events were run.

Enjoy. :-)

Steve

[steveyb]

you know what I think would be a positive step forward!!!

letting the superbikes run in supersport races!!! like they do with us to get more track/race time!!!! now where would the harm be in that????

I certainly see your point. But the Superbikes are at the top of the pile, it is not called the Actrix VMCC Superbike championship or the British Superbike Championship etc etc for nothing. And that is the choice that you make riding a superbike. If you want extra racing, try a 600 or 250GP bike or something.

So making Superbike and Supersport effectively the same class would be somewhat counterproductive.

But how about another idea? How about the Superbikes having longer, signature races at each meeting, making them the centerfold events for each meeting? How about a trophy is awarded at each meeting for the points leader? You could buy one and name it after a lost loved one or someone, they only cost 20 bucks. Or something new.

Why don't you develop an idea on paper and submit it to VMCC committee or join VMCC committee to make it happen yourself?

Enjoy :-)

Steve

[Racey Rider]

Nice reply Steve, Thankyou.

I guess I was not getting the right 'jist' of things by reading the oily rag.

I would like to be involed in the club more, but being here in New Plymouth,, What can I do?
I have in the past suggested that the AGM be held at Manfield the night before a race day so maybe more members could attend. I would certainly try to be there.
Poll Here. some more input from other Vic club members would be helpful

Alex H

[Ivan]

Steve

Your comments are perfect,

As a commitee member myself we are trying to run the events as fun and safe as possible,


You have a RG150 say 160-170ks
And a SV650 175-190ks
THeres a massive speed difference its the right combination for disaster,


And the 150 street stock,
Is a newbie learner class as stated else were in this thread,

We are not trying to discourage people from racing, we are trying our best to make it better,
You need to understand what happened in 2005 is somethingwe do not want to happen again, And if it means cutting slower riders out of the group and putting them in the next class they are suited for means safety then so be it.


Like Steve said If you think that the club are not running it properly join the commitee or what not at the next AGM

[twinshock750]

SteveyB

Whilst not being a member of the Vic club and neh, I am even an Aucklander plus a long time member of the AMCC, you have my undying gratitude because you have stated what is happening all over.

Too many racers, not enough people willing to do the job, many people expecting others to do the work while they get their jollies. Resource or lack thereof is a problem all over. Same shit, just different town up here...The guys work hard running meetings up here and I know they are tired and want a break also.

I'm a similar boat to you, I've sat at the committee table trying to work out how it can all fit together for everyone's best advantage, but at times, you do need to draw a line and say, we can't do that or this or run these guys here. Unfortuanetly 95% of riders don't get to see that view which puts many things in perspective.

I many times have said "don't bring me a problem, bring me a solution" when riders have bitched. Many know what they don't like, but many have never thought what the solution could be or what the upside/down side is of teh change. Most never came back to tell me what they would like. Some got grumpy because I didn't take the "monkey" onto my back and "fix" it (somehow without knowing what they wanted!)!

I may even venture south to R1 at Taupo. Are the roads sealed south of Bombay, do I need my passport, where do I turn off at Bombay....?

[Ivan]

Twin Shock spot on,


Yip I sit at the table to many people try and say how to run the meeting,
But when AGM time comes none of these people join,

[steveyb]

Twinshock dude, I have it on good authority that english is used outside of AKL also, so one need only read the signs and hey presto one will arrive.
With regard to AMCC, I was once too a committee member of AMCC and to see the same faces still running the show is an incredible testiment to their fortitude and committment to a sport that they actually no longer do, but facilitate for everyone else (Kia kaha to Lynnette, Trevor, Warren and Chris and the rest of them),

BUT

a terrible indictment on all of the riders out there who want "THEM to sort it out the way I want it"!!!!!

Clubs, I guess, will always be this way, but maybe one day civic mindedness will grow again in NZ.

The idea of having AGM outside of WGN so that others from further afeild can attend is a good one I for one had not thought of. I will discuss with committee guys. Maybe Palmy is a good venue, or Levin? My fear is that even if it were organised and Wellingtonians travelled out, the numbers and faces would be the same.

There is the very real possibility that VMCC could fold this year. We were very close in 2002 or 2003 when AGM did not reach quorum once and the next month only right on the button.

Enjoy :-)

Steve

[Sketchy_Racer]

As a commitee member myself we are trying to run the events as fun and safe as possible,


You have a RG150 say 160-170ks
And a SV650 175-190ks
THeres a massive speed difference its the right combination for disaster,

There's a flaw in your idea there Ivan.

if the speed difference really is an issue, then the 125GP would not run with streetstock, as they have essencially the same straightline speed as an F3 bike, and more corner speed.

I have ridden in streetstock with the 125s, and now i am a 125 rider with the streetstock, and i can assure you from my point of view, that there not an issue with the speed difference. If your really that concerned with the speed difference, what are you doing on a RACE track in the first place.

I DO however, agree that the 150s should be kept out off formula 3. yeah, i used it last season as more track time, but its the same argument as the motards, the streetstocks are envading on the F3 class, and its not really fair.

Now it is a shame to see the victoria club struggling, as they put on IMO the best club series in NZ.

The problem is for people like myself, that want to help out, to keep it all going smoothly, but that means i can't race, which defeats the purpose, as i want the club to stay alive, and meetings running well so that i can race.

My question to the club is, what can riders at a meeting do to help?

there is quite a bit of time between races, and im sure that time could be used for something constructive

-Glen

[JayRacer37]

There's a flaw in your idea there Ivan.

if the speed difference really is an issue, then the 125GP would not run with streetstock, as they have essencially the same straightline speed as an F3 bike, and more corner speed.

I have ridden in streetstock with the 125s, and now i am a 125 rider with the streetstock, and i can assure you from my point of view, that there not an issue with the speed difference. If your really that concerned with the speed difference, what are you doing on a RACE track in the first place.

I DO however, agree that the 150s should be kept out off formula 3. yeah, i used it last season as more track time, but its the same argument as the motards, the streetstocks are envading on the F3 class, and its not really fair.

Now it is a shame to see the victoria club struggling, as they put on IMO the best club series in NZ.

The problem is for people like myself, that want to help out, to keep it all going smoothly, but that means i can't race, which defeats the purpose, as i want the club to stay alive, and meetings running well so that i can race.

My question to the club is, what can riders at a meeting do to help?

there is quite a bit of time between races, and im sure that time could be used for something constructive

-Glen

Seconded. they want ten charicters in these posts??!!!! thatl do it then...

[cowpoos]

I certainly see your point. But the Superbikes are at the top of the pile, it is not called the Actrix VMCC Superbike championship or the British Superbike Championship etc etc for nothing. And that is the choice that you make riding a superbike. If you want extra racing, try a 600 or 250GP bike or something.

So making Superbike and Supersport effectively the same class would be somewhat counterproductive.

But how about another idea? How about the Superbikes having longer, signature races at each meeting, making them the centerfold events for each meeting? How about a trophy is awarded at each meeting for the points leader? You could buy one and name it after a lost loved one or someone, they only cost 20 bucks. Or something new.

Why don't you develop an idea on paper and submit it to VMCC committee or join VMCC committee to make it happen yourself?

Enjoy :-)

Steve

good points there steve!!!

[Ivan]

There's a flaw in your idea there Ivan.

if the speed difference really is an issue, then the 125GP would not run with streetstock, as they have essencially the same straightline speed as an F3 bike, and more corner speed.

I have ridden in streetstock with the 125s, and now i am a 125 rider with the streetstock, and i can assure you from my point of view, that there not an issue with the speed difference. If your really that concerned with the speed difference, what are you doing on a RACE track in the first place.

I DO however, agree that the 150s should be kept out off formula 3. yeah, i used it last season as more track time, but its the same argument as the motards, the streetstocks are envading on the F3 class, and its not really fair.

Now it is a shame to see the victoria club struggling, as they put on IMO the best club series in NZ.

The problem is for people like myself, that want to help out, to keep it all going smoothly, but that means i can't race, which defeats the purpose, as i want the club to stay alive, and meetings running well so that i can race.

My question to the club is, what can riders at a meeting do to help?

there is quite a bit of time between races, and im sure that time could be used for something constructive

-Glen

Well the thing is currently if you read the original post about the club that everyone on the committe and secratery president etc all currently race,


The thing is 150 Street Stock is that it is a newbie JR class,

It is there tostart your racing onand if you wish progress through the stepping stones like me and you have both done

you Start on 150 and then jump to F3 or 125 then on to 600 or 1000


If you are concerened with speed difference you shouldnt be on a race track?

The thing is in 2005 we had a nasty accident on the front straight, one rider tragically lost his life,

We dont want that to happen again,


So thats the reason for cutting down as many speed differences as possible,
Its one of those things that happens and its something you dont ever want to happen or see again and as a commitee member I know we have done as much as possible to stop an accident like this happening again in the future.


Ivan

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well the thing is currently if you read the original post about the club that everyone on the committe and secratery president etc all currently race,

Yes they do and they do a stellar job, but im yet to see what YOU do on a race day? Sweet fuck all.

big ups to the other guys.

The thing is 150 Street Stock is that it is a newbie JR class,

It is there tostart your racing onand if you wish progress through the stepping stones like me and you have both done

you Start on 150 and then jump to F3 or 125 then on to 600 or 1000

Yes, but you say that the SPEED DIFFERENCE is the problem. well there is the same speed difference in 125 gp vs 150 as it is for F3. I do not believe that it is a huge problem having the faster 150 guys out in the F3, but i can see it becoming a serious problem if slower guys are out there, and getting lapped by the F3 front runners. If one streetstocj isnt allowed out, none should be. simple. I agree with the rule change. But it is not on the basis of top speed.

If you are concerened with speed difference you shouldnt be on a race track?

The thing is in 2005 we had a nasty accident on the front straight, one rider tragically lost his life,

We dont want that to happen again,

That tragic accident has ZERO to do with the points being made by myself. Dont bring shit into a conersation, unless it is relelvant.
That accident has ZERO to do with the speed difference of a bike RACING on the track. Doesn't matter what kind of bike was stopped at the track, the were still stopped.

Think before you post irrelivant stuff

So thats the reason for cutting down as many speed differences as possible,
Its one of those things that happens and its something you dont ever want to happen or see again and as a commitee member I know we have done as much as possible to stop an accident like this happening again in the future.

Yes at the end of the day, it is to make it safer and more enjoyable for everyone. But all the risks can NEVER be removed. Its not called an extreme sport for nothing.

And please, for your own good stop talking about you being a commitee memeber...

-Glen

[Ivan]

Sorry but I do not agree with your comments,

We all do as much as we can,
You run me into the ground and I can not see why.
I am sorry I am notgoing to get into a petty childish argument with you over the internet

If you find an issue go to the next AGM


I am sorry that you think my ideas are stupid but they are not my ideas the things I brough into this is relevent they are all points trying to stop an accident like this happening again,

I know you wernt there the day it happened and I know you dont know what the club had to deal with for the next 3-4 months


THanks

Ivan