Does this baby deserve parents like this?

**Beemer** · 16th April 2007, 10:20

I know people make mistakes and not every person in prison will be back there within months of release, but this story on Stuff this morning really pisses me off. The baby was born in prison, its mother and father are both in prison - I think this is a case where the baby is better off being adopted out before it ends up just like mum and dad.

Prisoner wants baby born in jail returned to her care
The Dominion Post | Monday, 16 April 2007

A prisoner whose four-day-old baby was taken from her in jail is considering a legal fight to regain the child.

Cheyenne Tonihi, 23, is receiving grief counselling and taking anti-depressants for the loss, a Wellington District Court judge has been told.

Her daughter lives with her grandmother in Hawke's Bay, too far away to regularly visit Arohata Prison at Tawa.

The baby's father is in prison for drug offences.

Tonihi's lawyer, Michael Bott, confirmed that he was advising her on possible steps to challenge the decision that led to her losing the baby she had about four months ago, and had started to breastfeed.

In Wellington District Court on Friday he told Judge Mike Behrens, QC, that he thought the baby's removal had been barbaric and it had taken away Tonihi's strongest incentive to beat her drug addiction. She might have kept her baby if her security classification had been lower – but as it was she could not go to the self-care facility where she could have looked after her baby.

Green MP Sue Bradford has proposed a law change that would increase the time babies can stay with their mothers in prison – from the current six months to at least two years – with a focus on breastfeeding and learning good parenting.

Ms Bradford said a select committee hearing submissions would report back to Parliament in July, with "a lot of feedback" saying even two years was not long enough.

"The guilt and trauma associated with removing babies from their mothers has a dreadful impact on them," she said. There were 13 pregnant women in prison when the bill was first sent to a select committee for debate last June.

Mr Bott said Tonihi needed drug and alcohol counselling which she would not get in prison.

Instead Tonihi was getting grief counselling and anti-depressants to deal with the loss of her baby.

She was sentenced to five months' jail on two charges of selling cannabis to an undercover police officer, and two charges of having cannabis for the purpose of supply.

Judge Behrens said the new term would not add to the length of her sentence. He said it was all very well to criticise the system for taking away the baby, but he questioned whether that was more harmful than her daughter being returned to her when Tonihi was taking drugs.

**Finn** · 16th April 2007, 10:27

Does NZ deserve to have a baby like this? Answer, no.

Stop low life's from breeding. The country will be a better place.

**BarBender** · 16th April 2007, 10:28

Why adopted out?
What other solutions are there that take into consideration the possible successful rehabilitation of the parent?

**Finn** · 16th April 2007, 10:31

Originally Posted by BarBender

Why adopted out?
The kid will only end up wanting to be re-united with them when it gets older.

Yeah, maybe Johnson & Johnson can use it to make Baby Oil.

**Beemer** · 16th April 2007, 10:42

Originally Posted by BarBender

Why adopted out?
What other solutions are there that take into consideration the possible successful rehabilitation of the parent?

Considering the fact both parents are currently in jail, I doubt very much that they received good parenting themselves, so allowing the baby to stay within the family is only going to perpetuate the cycle.

And I'm afraid I have to agree with Finn - some people should not be allowed to breed.

**yungatart** · 16th April 2007, 10:47

Originally Posted by Beemer

Considering the fact both parents are currently in jail, I doubt very much that they received good parenting themselves, so allowing the baby to stay within the family is only going to perpetuate the cycle.

It is cheaper for the State to place a child with family members, no matter how unfit they may be as parents, than it is to place a child in a decent non-related foster family.
It all comes down to how they (the State) decide to spend your tax dollars....

**ManDownUnder** · 16th April 2007, 10:50

It's a big and tough question, and needs to be looked at case by case. On the face of it - it looks like the baby would be better off etc but in the absence of knowing all the details can any of us really comment?

My only hope is this - the child gets a good start and run at life, is provided with a healthy, nurturing environment and is not restricted in the opportunities they have. They should not be denied the chance to know their heritage (i.e. their Mum and Dad) and I hope they get to see the mess their Mum and Dad were in, in 2007, and that they're in a good enough position to understand what decisions were made, why and how it was ideally to their benefit.

It's a tough one and I hope everyone involved has their shit sorted out before making any decisions affecting the welfare of bubbz.

Rant off.

**Her_C4** · 16th April 2007, 11:23

Originally Posted by ManDownUnder

It's a tough one and I hope everyone involved has their shit sorted out before making any decisions affecting the welfare of bubbz.

Rant off.

Absolutely

but it has to be said, babies do NOT belong in prison, and babysitting is not listed as a required skill/responsibility in the Job Description of the Prison Officers / Prison Nurses.

**magicfairy** · 16th April 2007, 11:28

Each case is has to be treated individually.
But they are only cannabis offences, not violent crimes and maybe the one thing that will inspire this woman to improve her life would be that she has a baby to think of and put first.
I had a baby at 18, at the time I was not heading in a good direction, but being responsible for another person changed all that, and I did turn my life around. That baby is now 27, happily married for 6 years and going to make me a grandmother at the end of the year. But at the time a lot of people didn't give us a chance.

**crashe** · 16th April 2007, 11:51

In the UK, I believe they are allowed to keep their babies with them in prison for 1 year, some countries I think it is 2 years.
It is a privilage thou, not a given right to keep the baby with them.

If the mother farks up inside the mother/baby section, then the baby goes to a family member or foster care immediately.

So the mothers do their utmost to keep their babies with them for that bonding time and try to behave. During that time they are given help and guidence or looking after and raising a baby/child.

They have a part of the prison set up for the mothers and babies.
When the child reaches 1 year, then the baby is taken and given to the new caregiver (family or foster care) and the mother then goes back into the main prison area.

It would be unsettling for them both for a while...... but usually the child is brought into see the mum on a regular basis, depending on how long the mother has to serve.

Some women dont know they are pregnant when they are being sentenced but still have to remain in the main prison area until she reaches a certain time of her pregnancy.

Not all women go into prison for drugs and murder.... some is white collar crime....

**Beemer** · 16th April 2007, 12:34

Originally Posted by magicfairy

But they are only cannabis offences, not violent crimes and maybe the one thing that will inspire this woman to improve her life would be that she has a baby to think of and put first.

Sorry, but it's still illegal as far as I know and I don't really give a stuff what the offences are, it's the fact that BOTH parents are in jail. Not exactly setting themselves up for a great life where they could bring up a child well. Yes, people make mistakes and don't deserve to be punished forever for them, but that kid deserves a good start in life and having both parents in jail (even if they had 'only' shoplifted) is not a good start by any stretch of the imagination.

**Her_C4** · 16th April 2007, 12:35

Originally Posted by crashe

In the UK, .....

We are not in the UK and are not set up for proper care of mother and baby....

**bull** · 16th April 2007, 12:53

The self care unit in Arohata Prison IS setup for proper care of both mother and baby but due to her higher level of security she is unable to be in that unit, otherwise reality is she would have her child for 6 months in the unit and then the baby would be sent to family etc to be cared for.

**sunhuntin** · 16th April 2007, 13:01

Originally Posted by Beemer

Sorry, but it's still illegal as far as I know and I don't really give a stuff what the offences are, it's the fact that BOTH parents are in jail. Not exactly setting themselves up for a great life where they could bring up a child well. Yes, people make mistakes and don't deserve to be punished forever for them, but that kid deserves a good start in life and having both parents in jail (even if they had 'only' shoplifted) is not a good start by any stretch of the imagination.

exactly beemer... doesnt matter what the drug was... its still illegal. im wondering if "mum" was using while preg? the baby is only 4 months, and will get over it. my mother had a baby out of wedlock, which was removed as soon as it was born... shes ok [as best i can tell!!] i was adopted out at birth as well, and im also ok.

get the baby out now, while it still has a chance. leaving it in that situation can only push things furthur down the wrong path.