Illegal occupation rewarded

[Mr Merde]

Way off topic.

Can anyone tell me why there is just one monopolies commission?

or just one government?

Or one dept to sort out these treaty claims?


Mr

[Mr Merde]

Who repped me and mentioned coffe and rum.

I am blind for another 30 days.


Mr

[Shadows]

So... who's keen to occupy The Beehive then?

[James Deuce]

It's not a very attractive building and the rooms are all a weird shape.

I think us Pakeha will probably get to keep that one.

[MisterD]

Ahh, that ol' intellectually weak argument.

Is that really the best you can do? Never mind that the crown made a legally binding treaty and flagrantly disregarded it...Hell, teh crown even made legislation and disregarded it

That'd be the difference between Maori and Celts, Australian Aboriginals etc

If you really think any culture would stay in stasis in some sort of neo-stone age, you're kidding yourself.

In your deal, how about pakeha give back all the produce they grew on maori land, all the resources they extracted etc, etc...that'd be a raw deal for both sides.

And for all those wishing to run down the labour govt and their Maori loving, PC social engineering - how about remembering that the National government have put through far more in the way of treaty settlements than labour EVER has - have a look at Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 (passed when there was a red-headed pakeha minister of Maori affairs - Doug Kidd), for a piece of PC Maori-loving law. Ngai Tahu settlement anyone? National as well...

Go and read some history y'all - here's a good place to start.

Learn cheery facts like Ngai Tahu getting less than a penny an acre for their south island land, nice, fair, honest dealings by the crown and pakeha there!

Also learn that the treaty is the legal basis for pakeha government, and the basis for our pakeha ancestor's being here. It's our treaty too. I'm pretty pleased that my ancestors were tangata tiriti, as am I and all the rest of us non-maori NZers.

The point of that argument is to highlight the fact that this country would not be the place it is without everything that European migrants brought with them, as well as everything the Maori had when they arrived.

Personally I think the whole thing should be publicly on the balance sheet.Compensation for land lost, sure. Licencing fees for technology provided in the other column.

[Swoop]

Oh sure, Mum and Dad sold a house in the early 80's...its worth a shit load more now...maybe they should go back and collect the difference...

I wonder about this proposed law for "artists" that allows a percentage of all future sales of their "art" to go their way.
Surely, they painted a picture and sold that item for a set price. The second owner is taking the risk that the value will increase in that piece?

Mad.

[Phurrball]

GB said stuff here

Moriori are generally accepted as a Maori iwi or hapu. them being a seperate people is a nice myth to ease pakeha guilt and legitimise serious wrongs - 'But They did it too!!'

There was no mistake WRT signing the treaty or the acts afterwards. Mostly deliberate and calculated attempts to wrest land off Maori by bhook or by crook. Not mistakes - but immoral and often illegal by the Crown's own laws. Every tom, dick and harry getting in on the act were deemed to be crown agents in many cases.

There has been some progress on claims, but not nearly enough. The insulting and patronising institutions and attitudes that previously existed in officialdom towards Maori land have been rolled back at last with the expanded jurisdiction of the Maori land court and Te Ture Whenua Maori act.

[Phurrball]

True. But that is not quite the same thing as saying that the Crown "owns" all NZ land. Title to land never actually confers "ownership",merely a right to occupy, usually in fee-simple. And some other rights. That is why the law makes such a distinction between "real" estate (land) and "personal" estate (pretty much everything else - simplifiedly speaking). You know this, I realise, but others will not .

Aye, thank you for the clarification. Does 'Ixion' mean font of all wisdom in some obscure language of which I am unaware.

maybe syphillis

Europeans were helped in their colonisation worldwide by all the germs thay brought with them. You accidentally make a cogent point Dover! Go and sit in the corner and flagilate yourself for making a useful contribution!

The point of that argument is to highlight the fact that this country would not be the place it is without everything that European migrants brought with them, as well as everything the Maori had when they arrived.

Personally I think the whole thing should be publicly on the balance sheet.Compensation for land lost, sure. Licencing fees for technology provided in the other column.

Good point, but I think you'd have a VERY uphill battle trying to find a basis for Licensing fees on pakeha technology. IP law would not be much help, as it wasn't well developed then, and a lot of technological transfer took place prior to English laws being adopted here. Maori on the other hand have a massive and rich audit trail or rights and wrongs and a legal instrument with which to back up their claims.

Nice to come back today and see that this thread has stayed out of PD!

[doc]

When will you white fella's ever get the point. We won the war we got a treaty. If we didn't, because we could never come to an agreement with the other tribe, we ate them, partly because we had raped and pillaged our natural resources. Our conservation, was when we cleaned out the shellfish we moved to the next area and fought the fuckers for it who ever won got more protein in more ways than just shellfish . Thank f..k the long pigs arrived, they were extra tasty and so easy to get.
Quote from the "Musket Wars" .."The tribe feasted on the remains of human flesh until the smells of putrification moved them on"

[Grahameeboy]

Moriori are generally accepted as a Maori iwi or hapu. them being a seperate people is a nice myth to ease pakeha guilt and legitimise serious wrongs - 'But They did it too!!'

Okay. So they were not here first and then eaten or whatever.

There was no mistake WRT signing the treaty or the acts afterwards. Mostly deliberate and calculated attempts to wrest land off Maori by bhook or by crook. Not mistakes - but immoral and often illegal by the Crown's own laws. Every tom, dick and harry getting in on the act were deemed to be crown agents in many cases.

Fair enough, however, this is not new in history. Not saying it is right.

There has been some progress on claims, but not nearly enough. The insulting and patronising institutions and attitudes that previously existed in officialdom towards Maori land have been rolled back at last with the expanded jurisdiction of the Maori land court and Te Ture Whenua Maori act.

Maori are not the only guys who suffer insults and patronising.
Just a shame that we can not just all enjoy this land when none of us were around in the 1840's and the Country is suffering for what happened 150 years ago and from I glean from talking to Moari, most are not bothered.

.................................................

[Phurrball]

Maori are not the only guys who suffer insults and patronising.

Unfortunately, Maori were systematically divested of their land by numerous unfair government institutions and laws - they were discriminated against by the crown in a particularly disturbing way.[the Chinese possibly being another example] Other indigenous peoples have suffered possibly worse in other countries, that doesn't make what happened here any less egregious. The fact that the crown made specific promises in the treaty and in legislation, and broke them, gives Maori some comeback.

Maori [not all of them mind] didn't get into their dire socioeconomic status by themselves...that took the 'white man's' help...

Good thoughts.

Just a shame that we can not just all enjoy this land when none of us were around in the 1840's and the Country is suffering for what happened 150 years ago and from I glean from talking to Moari, most are not bothered.

I reckon most of us do enjoy this wonderful land - we're all tangata whenua in our own ways, and feel a strong connection to our beautiful, skinny, hilly, shaky isles.

Deep-seated issues don't go away by themselves sadly, and Maori issues have only really been addressed meaningfully since the 1985 extension to the Waitangi Tribunal's jurisdiction. 150 odd-years is a long time to suffer broken promises and their attendant ills without redress.

Good discussion here folks. Token stinking hippie signing off...

[Grahameeboy]

Unfortunately, Maori were systematically divested of their land by numerous unfair government institutions and laws - they were discriminated against by the crown in a particularly disturbing way.[the Chinese possibly being another example] Other indigenous peoples have suffered possibly worse in other countries, that doesn't make what happened here any less egregious. The fact that the crown made specific promises in the treaty and in legislation, and broke them, gives Maori some comeback.

Maori [not all of them mind] didn't get into their dire socioeconomic status by themselves...that took the 'white man's' help...

Good thoughts.



I reckon most of us do enjoy this wonderful land - we're all tangata whenua in our own ways, and feel a strong connection to our beautiful, skinny, hilly, shaky isles.

Deep-seated issues don't go away by themselves sadly, and Maori issues have only really been addressed meaningfully since the 1985 extension to the Waitangi Tribunal's jurisdiction. 150 odd-years is a long time to suffer broken promises and their attendant ills without redress.

Good discussion here folks. Token stinking hippie signing off...

Nau te rourou, naku te rourou ka ora te manuwhiri.............

I was really talking about now re insults etc.

I agree the fact that Maori are not the only guys who have been hit does not diminish what has happened, however, this has been the way of the world for centuries and sometimes they make out it is just them......and as for suffering only those here now can comment cause a lot of good has happened too.

[ynot slow]

my view is if the maori don't want european influence that would mean that all the educated maori with doctorates will want to be called mr or mrs eh dr.o'regan etc.mind you if abel tasman had landed we would all be speaking dutch as they took no prisoners so to speak.i drove passed the school last week and it's getting rundown quick.also the local comunity was hoping to purchase the school to use it as an adventure type base with all facilities to sleep and eat and view the local area for tourism maybe,but the govt stuffed it up.interestingly though about 20yrs ago when the debate over mt.egmont naming was about,i and many others bought t shirts with the slogan cross out the name which stinks,either taranaki or egmont and naki was crossed out.this printed by a business man who lived most of his life in hawera and was an architect,more so a maori and our present deputy mayor,he'd never get away with it today in our pc world,most weares of t shirts were 60/40 nz over maori too.my grandparents had land in town edge and had an old stable on property,with land subdivision etc they sold some land to the local council.down came the stables/barn for sections,silly thing apparently was the stables were the old armed constabulary from late 1800's,progress eh.mind you 30yrs ago we did that to old buildings.had a discussion with a new breed of maori (middle aged born again)about the names etc of the provence and land settlements etc,he couldn't give me any proof of sale just the tried bullshit,i asked him if you've spent most of your life in hawera you will know where the armed constabulary was as it's part of history,i.e land grab at turn of century,you guys all know the land was taken or bought for pittance.we all recognise historicall venues pa sites,battle sites etc,but he couldn't tell me and he knew all about the deprived people of the land.i gave up but did say we gave you fellas some mounts like eden and victoria.