Affordable lap timers

[notme]

WELL.

Mucho apologies for the ...erm many months without an update, but I have been busy with a few small things (restructuring at work, physically moving work AND home across town, etc etc) and playing on the net has had to come a second to the rest of my life for a while........

BUT. Here's an update on the lap timer - the good news and the bad news.

The good:

See pics. Smaller, better, does more, easier to use, more robust. The idea is that the main unit goes on your dash, and the sensor plugs in then goes to the side of the bike somewhere.
The basic functionality works, and it works well - now it's a case of adding features.


The bad:

Development was in my spare time and was when work with all of it's tools and resources was a little closer to get to on the weekend. The change in location means that work on this has basically stalled now. The only way forward is to either continue on slowly in my (little) spare time, or to make it a proper work project and product. Doing it in my own time would mean it gets done slowly, but cheaply. Doing it as a proper work project means i can throw work time at it so it gets done quicker (i.e. in time for better weather to come along so it can be used!) but someone has to pay for that work time. Damn the sad reality of business life!

So, my plan is to continue slowly working on this - i.e. an hour or 2 each weekend, but the purpose of posting this update is to a) let those interested know what's going on and b) fish a little bit - maybe someone will pop up and say HEY i just won lotto and i want to sponsor the development of this thing! Hey....it could happen....just watch out for flying pigshit!

A

[Tim 39]

Speaking for myself here, If I was to buy one I would just want a basic lap timer with only the features I'd need i.e storing lap times and that about it, that way I think it would be far more affordable to people like myself who dont want to pay a huge amount for something that does everything I don't need it to. or you could make a basic model (ready now?? what sort of price??) and then carry on building the flash do it all one

[notme]

Speaking for myself here, If I was to buy one I would just want a basic lap timer with only the features I'd need i.e storing lap times and that about it, that way I think it would be far more affordable to people like myself who dont want to pay a huge amount for something that does everything I don't need it to. or you could make a basic model (ready now?? what sort of price??) and then carry on building the flash do it all one

The price for the "flash" one will be about half the cost of the cheapest commercial one i could find.....

Good suggestions, but the parts that make up the basic timer are the parts that cost the most. So in order to make it work at all it will cost $whatever, then to add a few features to make it flash costs $whatever+alittlebit.

Similar thing with the development. Gettting it working at all was about 75% of the work, the finishing off so that it is practical to make in quantities will be another 24% of the total work, then changin the wording on the display or the order times are displayed or whatever other features people want is nothing at all.

[Tim 39]

whats your price estimate at the moment? still around $200?

[notme]

Yup.


around $200 for a kit of 1 transmitter, 1 receiver, 1 sensor, 1 set of instructions. future extras that could be bought are any of the parts seperately (i.e. you lose or kill your sensor, or you want to do split timing so you buy another transmitter) and (very sketchy details at the momenet) addons like a serial port or usb port cable to download times.

[Tim 39]

Yup.


around $200 for a kit of 1 transmitter, 1 receiver, 1 sensor, 1 set of instructions. future extras that could be bought are any of the parts seperately (i.e. you lose or kill your sensor, or you want to do split timing so you buy another transmitter) and (very sketchy details at the momenet) addons like a serial port or usb port cable to download times.

That all sounds very good to me

[Sanx]

Allun; good update mate. The development sounds well advanced. Just a few thoughts:

• As you're now going with a seperate transceiver and display module, could you then have different transceiver types? Ones that detect the strips in the track where the tracks have them, and the IR modules for those that don't?
• Will the transceiver module and display modules share the same power source? If they can, can the more vulnerable to crash / rain damage part - the transceiver - can be made smaller and possibly be made a little more resilient to vibration and moisture by covering all the electronics in epoxy?
• Even with a display, some form of visual comparative lap time indicator does sound like a good idea. Displays need reading, and sometimes the time needed is just not available. As someone suggested, a row of ten or twelve LEDs along the top could be used a simple lap-time guide. Make half of them red and half green, and each time you go through past the beacon, it lights up one LED per 500ms above or below the last lap time.
• Lastly: did you still want to borrow my mate's lap timer / beacon so you can code yours not to interfere? If so, drop me a PM.

[notme]

Allun; good update mate. The development sounds well advanced. Just a few thoughts:

• As you're now going with a seperate transceiver and display module, could you then have different transceiver types? Ones that detect the strips in the track where the tracks have them, and the IR modules for those that don't?

Sure could....BUT. The only receiver that has been developed so far is the IR one. My research last year suggested that the IR method was the way to go because it doesn't rely on anything at the track, i.e. you can use it anywhere (anywhere legal of course).

• Will the transceiver module and display modules share the same power source? If they can, can the more vulnerable to crash / rain damage part - the transceiver - can be made smaller and possibly be made a little more resilient to vibration and moisture by covering all the electronics in epoxy?

I see your thinking - this is how it works: The system comprises of a tranmitter that sits trackside (top of pit wall or whatever) and a part that goes on the bike. The part that goes on the bike is the display and brains module that goes on the dash, and the IR pickup that goes on the side of the bike facing the transmitter. The IR pickup will be sealed, plus it's the cheapest part to replace, all of which is by design since it will probly get wiped out in the event of a crash. The brain (once the design is finalized!) will confirm to industry standard practice - we do this @ work all the time so yeah it will be potted in epoxy or similar.

• Even with a display, some form of visual comparative lap time indicator does sound like a good idea. Displays need reading, and sometimes the time needed is just not available. As someone suggested, a row of ten or twelve LEDs along the top could be used a simple lap-time guide. Make half of them red and half green, and each time you go through past the beacon, it lights up one LED per 500ms above or below the last lap time.

This has also evolved since the update a few months ago - if you look near the bottom left of the LCD in my first photo, you can (just) see a water-clear LED. It's a superbright orange one, and is pretty damn hard to miss when the unit is on your dash! I'll have the unit running such that it flashes or somefink if the lap you just did is faster than the previous (configurable option of course!)

• Lastly: did you still want to borrow my mate's lap timer / beacon so you can code yours not to interfere? If so, drop me a PM.

Cheers for the offer - not necessary at least at this stage :-)

[Sketchy_Racer]

Let us know when they are ready for sale.

Im keen to get one asap

[Sanx]

Sure could....BUT. The only receiver that has been developed so far is the IR one. My research last year suggested that the IR method was the way to go because it doesn't rely on anything at the track, i.e. you can use it anywhere (anywhere legal of course).

But if the sensor to controller interface was standard, perhaps the magnetic strip sensor could be developed at a later date.

This has also evolved since the update a few months ago - if you look near the bottom left of the LCD in my first photo, you can (just) see a water-clear LED. It's a superbright orange one, and is pretty damn hard to miss when the unit is on your dash! I'll have the unit running such that it flashes or somefink if the lap you just did is faster than the previous (configurable option of course!)

Was just thinking it might be nice to have an easily recognisable indicator of your comparative lap time. If you see lots of green, you've done well. If you see lots of red, you've done poorly. If you see a little green, you know you're gradually getting quicker. That type of thing.

Cheers for the offer - not necessary at least at this stage :-)

No probs. Let me know if you need it.

Another thought; I see you're using a PP9 9V battery. Have you looked into any other type of battery that might be available that could help minimise size; for instance, mobile phone ones. They're usually thin and flat, so could fit behind the PCB more easily. Whilst it would push the initial cost up, it would help save money in the long run as you wouldn't have to replace PP9s all the time. The battery technology's around and the chargers are easy to come by. My Nokia one only runs at 4V, but there might be something around that's suitable.

Anyway ... I'll stop interfering in something I know nothing about now

[steveyb]

Hi.
Sorry to be a bit of a downer, but you should really consider if your time will be well spent pursuing this. If you want to do it as a project and just to have a go, great. Many of us do such things just for the hell of it.

If however, you are thinking that you are doing it to possibly manufacture and sell some, you really should think carefully.

There is a good number of manufacturers of this sort of equipment internationally (indeed one is/was in Christchurch, Wasp Engineering, not sure their current status). What is your competitive edge, your point of difference and unique selling proposition?

The main reasons why this equipment is not readily available in NZ is due to the small market and the tight margins. But for example, AIMSports equipment, among the market leaders, is available through Lascom in Lower Hutt and might soon be available through another local dealer specialising in motorcycle application. Remember that the AIM and Alfano stuff works on both mag stips and IR, so will work at virtually any circuit in the world and they run on flat 3V (?) Li batteries.

Prices? This sort of electronic gear is not really that cheap to manufacture in a presentable form and in a form that will withstand the rigours of motorcycle racing:rain, vibration, impacts etc. People also need to make a profit if they are taking the risk to design, develop, manufacture or to import and inventory this stuff.

I would think carefully about approaching this from a business point of view. If you have not seen the competition products in the flesh, then you must, as they are all very nice peices of kit nowadays. To be better and indeed to be cheaper will be very difficult, as if your gear is the same price or even a bit less than an AIM product available over the internet, then why will anyone buy one? Just cos it is made in NZ? Not a sustainable business proposition.

Again, sorry to be a downer, but I am in this business, albeit in quite a small way, and it is very difficult to do better than an established manufacturer who has been in the market for many years.

But to make a more positive comment, there are certain business and R&D grants available from government that might allow you to pay for R&D at your business as a proper project. Check out FRST and TechNZ websites.

Best of luck

Steve.

[notme]

But if the sensor to controller interface was standard, perhaps the magnetic strip sensor could be developed at a later date.

the interface is "standard enough" as little sense as that makes, that adding other sensor types won't be a problem.

Was just thinking it might be nice to have an easily recognisable indicator of your comparative lap time. If you see lots of green, you've done well. If you see lots of red, you've done poorly. If you see a little green, you know you're gradually getting quicker. That type of thing.

Point taken....but unfortunately it's easy to have 1 or even 2 led's that can flash or come on or whatever to indicate various things, but an array of them means having enough spare pins on the microcontroller for one per LED or else multiplexing hardware of some sort. These things are not conducive to keeping the size and cost down.....

Another thought; I see you're using a PP9 9V battery. Have you looked into any other type of battery that might be available that could help minimise size; for instance, mobile phone ones. They're usually thin and flat, so could fit behind the PCB more easily. Whilst it would push the initial cost up, it would help save money in the long run as you wouldn't have to replace PP9s all the time. The battery technology's around and the chargers are easy to come by. My Nokia one only runs at 4V, but there might be something around that's suitable.

YYet another size/cost/complexity decision. Chucking a 9V battery connector on the unit is somewhat easier and simpler than some sort of (expensive) recargeable battery, which also means providing a charger ...quite cheap nowadays i know but when the retail cost of the unit is to be $200 a rechargeable batt and charger might be 25% of the build cost!
The battery life in the display unit should be pretty good - another reason i've used an LCD rather than many LEDs - much less power hungry. I'd expect something like 18 to 20 hours of run time before the battery needs changing.

Anyway ... I'll stop interfering in something I know nothing about now

Hehehe you sound like you know more than you're letting on! Yer thought processes are right on the money mate

[notme]

Was asked via PM if this could be applied to 1/4 mile times - the answer is YES, but you need 2 transmitters. Any number of transmitters will be able to be used on a track, and the unit will give split times. 1/4 mile is just the split time between 2 transmitters - so i'd just have an option in the setup screens called "1/4 mile" or similar. :-)

[Waylander]

Was asked via PM if this could be applied to 1/4 mile times - the answer is YES, but you need 2 transmitters. Any number of transmitters will be able to be used on a track, and the unit will give split times. 1/4 mile is just the split time between 2 transmitters - so i'd just have an option in the setup screens called "1/4 mile" or similar. :-)

Good from a standing start though or would it start counting the time as soon as you got next to it?

[notme]

Good from a standing start though or would it start counting the time as soon as you got next to it?

The 1/4 mile mode would have you starting in line with the first transmitter, so that when you leave the beam the timer starts, then when you hit the next beam (1/4 of a mile away) the timer would stop.