Death penalty

[Skyryder]

Eye witnesses are amongst the least reliable source of fact, especially with regards to violent events. Even less reliable months or years later when called on to produce testomony. I wouldn't care to trust my life to eye witnesses, I'd be even less happy with written testomony taken by the police at the time.

That's my biggest disappointment with current policing operational policy, the emphasis on the requirement of a successful conviction. It should be focused on successful discovery of evidence.

How many of you have been exposed to charges arising from a partly or completely constructed official statement, (and invariable subsequent conviction?) It's way too common, particularly with regards to traffic infringements eh? If it's as common as some say the system's arguably rotten at the core, how can we respect that level of corruption?

I'm interested in alternatives to the adversarial judicial system too, too often cases are decided with hugely unevenly resourced representation. The French investigative system is interesting.

One of the better posts on this subject. Plenty here bitch and moan about the police lying over traffic infringments. Just hope these are not the ones advocating the death penalty.

Bling on the way

Skyryder

[Ocean1]

Read the book and enlighten yourself about our justice system. It will 'open' your eyes, believe me.

Skyryder

I may.

Your comment suggested we shouldn't attempt to correct criminal behaviour because our justice system isn't capable of convicting only the guilty.

I can't accept the conclusion, I'm afraid justice requires a high level of fidelity from the constabulary and the courts. I require it. In accepting less we admit that we live in a dangerously dysfunctional society.

[SARGE]

Only if it's corrupt like it was in the movie

Survivor with Serial Killers ..

call it " NO SURVIVORS"



" im sorry .. the cellblock has spoken."

[98tls]

This sounds like a personal experiance so I will not comment on it.

Skyryder

comment all you like mate......no problem..........and i accept that everybody is entilted to theres blah blah..............but take a minute and think of someone wonderful,very old,very wise,and very very helpless.......then think of some piece of shit bashing her..........i cant for the life of me no matter how deep i search think of one possible redeeming feature that that person may have..........ive chuckled at some of the comments ive read in this thread.......in no way am i god but still the word niave springs to mind.........thats putting it politely.

[Street Gerbil]

"Merciful to the wicked is wicked to the merciful" --- Maymonides.
Sometimes justice can be only served by terminating one's life.
Not to mention that despite popular opinion, it is a deterrence.

[Sanx]

For some reason, people are stating the death penalty is the only way to prevent re-offending. It isn't. If they don't get out of jail again, they can't re-offend. But if you execute them, they can never get released should they later be shown to be innocent.

[candor]

No strong feeling but some thoughts...

I reckon its an exceptionally good idea for sadistic serial killers (and maybe animal torturers) given incontrovertible evidence as they are incurable and completely without justification to be breathing

Not such a good idea for other offenders like rapists as they'll see this as a good reason to conceal the body forever - or to kill those they might not have or to finish of the half dead. Have to think of impact on victims no1.

Still I do believe other sadistic offenders than serial killers might well be sterilised - that would deter as it strikes at the heart of their ego. Figured that one out as a rapist freak I know got cursed in his (Maori) culture to have no kids and it literally was the greatest punishment for an egomaniac like him. He told me plaintively that the curse (which apparently worked) had ruined his life, ha ha.

My approach to philosophy on this DP thing is prolly based on two values I gained as a kid.

- Shoot mad animals humanely, better all round; and maybe they'll reincarnate in a better form as an Asian friend I've discussed it with believes (this helps them accept death penalties as sensible and natural over there)

- the law of the least amount of casualties, which is one often exemplified by the work of professional assassin; I have met and admired some for carrying the guilt that goes with getting your hands dirty for the greater good.

Clearly it would be the greater of two evils if one was to meet Hitler in the dark alley in Nazi Germany and one had a silencer gun and he had no body guards and one did not "seize the day".

I could see a termination in this circumstance as being highly altruistic. And I know the guilt would be hard to live with if one did not have the balls do the right thing too, just because of some pre-programmed little concerns about ones immortal soul burning in hell or other such selfish thoughts instilled by social control agents like the Sunday school teacher.

It does not surprise that some of the worst degenerates are happy to get DP - its a natural progression as they are so aggro / violent really as they are displacing their own self loathing onto others. I think they instinctively know they are POS's and will never get satisfaction out of life. So I guess give them what they want and wish them better luck on the other side.

The DP can also help with forgiveness on the part of victims too. I know many victims never truly rest in peace till their persecutors carc it. Its tough knowing a piece of malevolence walks the earth and is still doing its thing.

My definition of forgiveness - accepting that events/ things / situations / offenders could never ever have been or happened any other way, because you understand why they happened the way they did.

It has little relation to apologies or offenders reforming or making amends. The only way DP could deprive victims of forgiveness I can see is if it prevented victims or their loved ones from questioning things they need to to understand (really deeply) why the offender acted how they did in the critical moment.

Sometimes that can take face to face interaction and sometimes it can take a few years for victim or offender to be ready to talk or listen (the connection remains till understanding enters and you can go "ah hah - in your shoes I too would have been a psychokiller etc").

If my "offender" (attempted killer etc etc) was killed I'd have missed the chance to talk years later in jail which was very good for me, if my Mothers killer had been euthanased as I earlier may have supported that would be another lost opportunity. He refuses to talk to me but one day he will not - he needs to be alive for that.

[janno]

Not to mention that despite popular opinion, it is a deterrence.

Don't agree with that - I'd say crims either think they are waaay too clever to get caught, or are so fired up in the moment or whacked out on whatever that they don't think about getting caught.


Just as an aside - does anyone know what percentage of violent crime the States have per capita compared to here?

[ManDownUnder]

I've been thinking though......alive innocents in jail cant parent their children either can they? That is a suck arguement MDU, may as well kill them from the start?

Yaaaa - not really ... there is always hope. Appeals, future technologies and I think I would rather my folks were alive in Prison than dead and gone with no hope of ever.

Let's say the real bad guy gets caught 20 years hence... what happens then?

[Lias]

Better one innocent man die than nine criminals walk among us.

Fucking Ay!

I'm against reoffending. All the people who are killed are innocent... and there's a damn sight more of them.

On the whole, the damage to society is less if 1 innocent man is executed than if 9 guilty men are let free to reoffend. The good of society as a whole has to come first.

I don't believe true forgiveness is dead mate I wouldn't want to believe that.

If your wife and daughter were raped in front of you, then killed themselves because they cant live with it, would you ever be able to forgive the offenders? I couldnt.. Maybe your a better man than I am gunga din...

better yet ..

1. Houston Astrodome
2. family members of the victim
3. plastic baseball bats
4. Pay Per View

for the most violent repeat offendes .. abolish the " Cruel and Unusual Punishment " ban.. have a contest for the most creative

Running Man?

Hell yeah.. I'd pay to watch :-) Then again I think all sport that ISNT blood sport should be banned.. Bring on the bloodbowl :-P

fuck human rights .. they took someone elses .. why should they have any?

Cannot agree more.. When someone commits an act so serious they need to be excluded from society, they lose the rights that a member of that society could normally expect. Including the right to continue living in some circumstances. Like damn near any sexual offending or child abuse, murder, and burning the flag...

I'm very pro death penalty, and also pro "hard labour on bread and water" for prisons in general. I'm all for rehabilitation & community sentences for first timer offenders or very minor stuff, but certainly anything like burglary or armed robbery should see the perp in a quarry on a chain gang for 20+ years. If they live that long..

[SARGE]

Cannot agree more.. When someone commits an act so serious they need to be excluded from society, they lose the rights that a member of that society could normally expect. Including the right to continue living in some circumstances. Like damn near any sexual offending or child abuse, murder, and burning the flag...

1st degree murder .. rape, pedophilia, etc ( class 1 offenses) grab the plastic ball bats .. burning the flag?.. funny enough.. as patriotic as i am about the US Flag .. go ahead and burn it.. freedom of expression and all that .. thats one of the rights myself nd my family have fought for over the past 300 years and i wont squash someones rights to express themselves in any way they see fit as long as it harms no one ..

i WILL however reserve MY right to freedom of expression and let them know what I think of the fact they are doing that i wont be PC about it either ..

[Lias]

1st degree murder .. rape, pedophilia, etc ( class 1 offenses) grab the plastic ball bats .. burning the flag?.. funny enough.. as patriotic as i am about the US Flag .. go ahead and burn it.. freedom of expression and all that .. thats one of the rights myself nd my family have fought for over the past 300 years and i wont squash someones rights to express themselves in any way they see fit as long as it harms no one ..

i WILL however reserve MY right to freedom of expression and let them know what I think of the fact they are doing that i wont be PC about it either ..

Ok Ok my tounge might have been in my cheek when I said that.. just a little bit .. Does seriously piss me off when they do that thou . Dont like the govt? I mean who does.. But desecrating the flag that so many of our forefathers have died for is just something that really gets up my left testicle..

[SARGE]

Ok Ok my tounge might have been in my cheek when I said that.. just a little bit .. Does seriously piss me off when they do that thou . Dont like the govt? I mean who does.. But desecrating the flag that so many of our forefathers have died for is just something that really gets up my left testicle..

well.. most of the protesters cant or wont do anything tangible about something so al they can do it " protest" (ie: bitch).. thats their right.. who am i to say " go get a govt job and change things? .. " anti-abortion protesters, animal rights protesters, anti-war etc.. let them go nuts ..long as it dont get violent .. go hard .. the second it goes south.. get the water cannons out

for the real lowlife bastards .. open up a Gitmo-Style Gulag, the "beyond the reasonable doubt" guys ( confessed, DNA proof, busted red handed etc) why waste time on appeals?..get it over with and stop wasting everyones time and money.

[Winston001]

I'm currently reading the biography of Albert Pierrepoint, the last executioner in England. The film about him has just been released. Chilling stuff.

Pierrepoint was a dignified man who treated condemned fellons with humanity. Far from being a bloodthirsty macho person, he saw himself as a necessary servant of the judicial system, whose job it was to execute prisoners with the minimum of delay and fuss.

Interestingly he says that no executioner was compelled - if they had doubts about a particular case, they simply said they weren't available and another did the job.

I hadn't realised but there was a list of executioners rather than one for the whole of England.

Hanging - if done well, and this was a point of pride for Pierrepoint - was quick. He relates a hanging where the prisoner left the cell on the first toll of the 8:00am bell, and was dead by the last toll.

I'd always considered hanging as barbaric but am reconsidering that. Done scientifically, it is instant.

[SARGE]

I'd always considered hanging as barbaric but am reconsidering that. Done scientifically, it is instant.

unlike some of the victims deaths im sure

the fear of death is not enough to dissuade some if thy know it will be quick and painless.. the threat of a horrible death however, should make someone think twice.

" i killed this child and have been sentenced to go to sleep with a lethal injection.. thats not so bad .."

however..

"I killed this child and i will now face having the sentence carried out in EXACTLY the same way i killed him with all the fear and pain i inflicted on that child..."

i'd think twice ..

whatever happened to " let the punishment fit the crime"?