Fingerprints

**MisterD** · 28th June 2007, 15:05

Originally Posted by Jim2

Aha!

That is trotted out by conservative law abiding "citizens" every time basic human rights are removed.

It's not the fact that you have nothing to hide that should be determining whether they are allowed to do this.

..and in response the standard civil liberties clap trap.

Once upon a time people lived in small communities where everyone knew who everyone else was, this is just technology making the same instant identification possible again. I don't have any issue with that.

**scumdog** · 28th June 2007, 17:47

Originally Posted by yod

umm yeah...u kinda missing the point there mate.

the problem is, as much of a bloody top bloke as I'm sure you are, criminals have a tendency to lie to Mr Plod, so it's a little difficult for Mr Plod to tell whether you have anything to hide based purely on your word.....

Eggs-Zachary!

Like last week:
"Got a licence?"
"Yep, not on me though"
"OK, give me your name and date of birth"
(Gives the above and comes back as having a licence)
"So you got any ID to show me who you are?"
"Nah man, sorry"

Long story short got a mate to turn up with a computer photo of the person whose details I had and it was no match at all and asking what Court convictions he had he had no idea - turns out he was disqualified (4th time) and a drug using burglar from Hawkes bay.

**scumdog** · 28th June 2007, 17:53

Originally Posted by JimBob

I appreciate and understand what you are trying to do. But sooner or later this will be applied to otherwise law-abiding citizens. Sooner or later I will be treated the same as that gang member. Why should I be?
Bit like the Taser trial. "it will be used as an alternative to deadly force" -my words but that was how it was sold to the public.
9mths from Sep 06 100 incidents, 15 discharges(euphemism for sticking someone), does that mean that without the Taser there would have been 15 people shot by Police? Shouldnt think so but it does show that you start out with a Noble Cause and then expand it from there. Fingerprinting, dna, id cards, rfi, will be exactly the same.
And I do know what its like to operate with one arm tied behind my back so I do sympathise.

So how would YOU suggest the Taser subject be controlled otherwise???

If there were not so many liars out there the portable fingerprinting would not be needed.

**scumdog** · 28th June 2007, 17:55

Originally Posted by Jim2

Breath testing has done nothing to remove recidivist drunken drivers from our roads. Over arching methods of Policing that treat all citizens as criminals are inherently repugnant.

Check points do not save lives. There is NO way to prove that they do.

Fingerprinting every NZ citizen will not reduce crime.

Laugh all you want. When you get that RFI chip embedded in your neck and you are blocked from public toilets, gas stations, and movie theatres because you shouted at your spouse before you went to work, remember you were warned.

Governments should not be allowed to create laws that reduce the rights of every citizen to address issues that involve a very small minority of the population and we should not be allowing them to do this to us. They are our servants. Not our leaders, not our bosses, not our rulers.

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling"!!

**scumdog** · 28th June 2007, 18:00

Originally Posted by civil

However you need to realsie that by 'Driving' you are doing a criminal act, otherwise you would not need a 'licence' now would you?......

You dumb fucking arse - you would be a criminal if you DIDN'T have a licence!!

How the hell is driving a criminal act???

BTW Top troll laddie!!!

**scumdog** · 28th June 2007, 18:06

Originally Posted by Albino

Why are you stopping them on the street, or pulling them over if they haven't committed an offence?

Where did he say they hadn't committed an offence???

Sheesh, this thread has really raked in it's full quote of dumb-arse comments and retard posters, I'm in stitches, keep 'em coming!!

**scumdog** · 28th June 2007, 18:09

Originally Posted by spudchucka

Good grief, what is about KB that seems to attract a brand new village idiot about every six months or so?

Aw c'mon guy, what you got against this village??

**Hitcher** · 28th June 2007, 18:57

Originally Posted by Dynamytus50

The media has turned this around and i note that the tv3 pole says "should police be able to take your fingerprints without arresting you" which is bullshit and they know it. Fucking media.

The Police shouldn't be able to take your fingerprints without arresting you. What's next, having one's own personal copper friend who goes everywhere with one just in case one gets some sort of criminal urge?

**JimBob** · 28th June 2007, 19:01

Originally Posted by scumdog

So how would YOU suggest the Taser subject be controlled otherwise???

If there were not so many liars out there the portable fingerprinting would not be needed.

Fists Boots and Batons worked ok for us, but then again you get paid more so I guess thats out of the question.
It wasnt an antiTaser post if you read it

**Hitcher** · 28th June 2007, 19:21

Originally Posted by Dynamytus50

The print cannot be stored on the pda it is simply used for a check against prints we have on file.

Really? Says who? What happens when Police get better PDAs and data upload speeds?

**Paul in NZ** · 28th June 2007, 19:46

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Really? Says who? What happens when Police get better PDAs and data upload speeds?

So say the people who know how the system works ;-) A single thumb prints pretty well useless...

**rwh** · 28th June 2007, 20:18

Originally Posted by Sanx

Next will come the introduction of 'voluntary' ID cards. Except you'll need them for accessing health care or any government service. So everyone will need them. When they've achieved sufficient critical mass, they'll make them compulsory. Then they'll make it compulsory to carry with you at all times. Then they'll make it an arrestable offence not to carry it.

Aha, one of my favourite subjects - time to rant about it in an inappropriate forum.

We already have a need to be identified - it's good that I can't use multiple identities to claim the dole while in a job and suchlike, and demonstrate that I'm the person who's passed my driving test. The trouble is, we don't have any proper way to do that. We have a whole bunch of different things that people pretend are proof of identity that aren't.

Firstly there's the birth certificate. All that is is a piece of paper saying someone was born on a particular date, and given a particular name. It doesn't say anything at all about the person who happens to be carrying it, and was never intended to - anyone can get a copy of anybody's birth certificate; it's public info.

Then there's the driver's licence - it's got a photo on it, so I can't be carrying someone else's, right? Not quite - if I go into the AA and tell them I've lost (misplaced) my licence and want another one, they'll take a new photo and give it to me. Sure, they'll ask for id - my birth certificate ... fat lot of good that does. I believe Fair Go tested this a few years ago, and it worked fine; they walked away with a licence in someone else's name, with their own photo on it (Philip Alpers' photo on Des Britten's licence, IIRC). Admittedly if the system stored the photo, the official could compare the old with the new and realise maybe something was up, but apparently that doesn't happen, or didn't then.

Other dodgy things are used as id, too - they want proof of my address, so they ask me for a bank statement - how hard to fake is that? I just tell the bank I live at a particular address, and make sure I get to the letter box to nick the first statement while the resident's out at work.

The proposed solution to the first issue is apparently to restrict who can get access to birth certificates, which seems a totally backwards approach to me - they exist and have a purpose, and trying to load them up with another conflicting purpose will just cause problems for both purposes.

So I think we do need a proper way of identifying ourselves - possibly not one we can use on the side of the road, but one that can be used at the top of a chain of processes to get to something like the driver's licence which is used for a particular purpose. DNA may be one way; fingerprints another. As someone else said, we are no longer able to identify people directly as we were in little villages, so the id needs to be centralised - central government seems the only reasonable place to do it.

Richard

**JimBob** · 28th June 2007, 20:27

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Really? Says who? What happens when Police get better PDAs and data upload speeds?

I think they work by sending the print to the national database where the search is done. So no need to store on the pda.
And to those who think its a good idea you can voluntarily have your dna and fingerprints added to the national databases. Contact your local Police station for details.
who's first?

**candor** · 28th June 2007, 20:34

Listening to media I was fooled into thinking they could store everyones prints.

Thats no good as then it would be easy for the Police to frame people eg ?put a mould of your fingerprint on a glass at a murder scene.

But if they don't store prints this could be good.

Just two situations of horribly mistaken identity I know of could have been cleared up.

A) A friends family was told by Police that she had died in a car crash in Lower Hutt about six years ago.

However Police were mistaken - it was her cousoin of the same name! Oops.

B) There is a criminal who has my same first and last name and who even uses the same library as I do - I looked on the screen to see her listed.

For awhile there the Police kept posting ME her summonses. The Courts would not accept my phone explanation that it wasn't me, and finally a summons came saying that if I didn't pay fines or turn up in court or something I would be arrested and put in custody! Concerning... a tad.

More ph calls and they would not believe I was not her. So I had to take a morning and spend gas money (under threat of arrest) to go to Porirua Court and show them my birth certificate with a different middle name and birth date to this woman who was up on driving charges - committed in her car not mine obviously. Did the state reimbures me - ha ha (TUI).

Now what if I was car less or a mental inept person - seems I woulda ended up in jail while the real crim roved free. Oh she has a red subaru - mines blue.