Lapped riders! WTF

[GSVR]

This thread is being started to discuss the issues surrounding having bikes lapping at different speeds and lapped riders.

The most extreme example I have seen of backmarkers being lapped is Wanganui. I've known riders to pull out of a race there to avoid getting in the way of the lead pack.

Its often stated thats its the responsibility of the overtaking rider to pass safetly.

I think some clubs operate a 115% percent rule when qualifying and riders not reaching this percentage of the fastest rider being placed in Clubmans or some other alternative but this will still mean that slower rider and machines are going to be lapped in longer races.

What are the thoughts of our fastest riders? How do the riders who get lapped feel about how things currently operate? Should different rules apply to National level racing than Club Racing? Are lapped riders the most important safety issue for riders what else is there?

[sinfull]

I aint no bottom dweller ! I'm the scum that floats around the top !

That aside, tis the reason i won't enter my triumph in anything that's liable to see the front runners catch me !

So i have sort of given up on the racing buzz till i can lay my hands on sommit else !

[codgyoleracer]

This thread is being started to discuss the issues surrounding having bikes lapping at different speeds and lapped riders.

The most extreme example I have seen of backmarkers being lapped is Wanganui. I've known riders to pull out of a race there to avoid getting in the way of the lead pack.

Its often stated thats its the responsibility of the overtaking rider to pass safetly.

I think some clubs operate a 115% percent rule when qualifying and riders not reaching this percentage of the fastest rider being placed in Clubmans or some other alternative but this will still mean that slower rider and machines are going to be lapped in longer races.

What are the thoughts of our fastest riders? How do the riders who get lapped feel about how things currently operate? Should different rules apply to National level racing than Club Racing? Are lapped riders the most important safety issue for riders what else is there?

The last thing a faster rider wants to do is get tangled up with a rider about to be lapped. A) Because it can spoil both the riders days real quick and B) because if you have someone on your tail - you dont want to impede your own line too much & slow yourself down.
The onus is most definatly on the passing rider to complete the pass without interfering with the slower riders line or making any contact.
In my recollection there have been very few incidents (crashes) overall which relate to this subject - however it is a reality of "the laws of average" that having two bikes that are travelling at close proximity to each other & with one going quicker than the other that "shit happens".
often in my experience the slower rider is the one that suffers the worst - as they have a tendency to overreact to a close passing manouvre and may change their line rapidly. Changing their line can have a dramatic affect on the next person behind them that is "about to make a pass" - or it can affect there own stabilty & cause a problem.
The blue flag idea is a sound one - however educating marshalls can be tricky for clubs + also it gets difficult on longer races to identify the faster riders coming through - especially if they are mid fielders passing slower riders.

Basically it is an inevitable fact of racing that passing & lapping will occur (especially on shorter tracks). It is a "part of racing" and is also a part of the risk of racing. I personally have entered races in classes above my grade and have been lapped as a result in the past due to this & have never really had a problem with the issue.

The only 'safety issue " i have with it is when there is a machine or a competitor on the track that has a massive straightline speed differential. And by massive i am talking 50kph +. These speed differentials create situations where if things get a bit tight - then the contact that results is a BIG impact and often injury causing. This situation rarely happens in classes where all machines are "similar" - but it occasionaly does arise , - usually when there is a machine fault or the rider is very new or inexperienced to the sport.
I need not preach to the faster guys who know only to well the problems that can unfold very quickly if there are extreme speed differentials.

Most of the clubs are very good at highlighting the protocol of being passed at riders briefing aka "hold your line & dont worry or try to predict whats happening behind you". The faster rider in almost all instances has his/her own & your own safety in mind.

Cheers
Glen

[JayRacer37]

I agree with Glen, in that its not the lapping that is difficult, it is the lapping a bike moving at a much slower place. Go to a trakday and go out in the 'slow' class and you will see what I mean, it can be downright scary. At club rounds (vic wnter series, for eg) they seem good at getting the riders who are really dangerous out whilegiving everyone else a fair shot at riding in their proper class. At Nationals though, I think that although they do enforce a 115% qualifiying cutoff, that perhaps with the lenth of races they need to move this to the more international standard of a 107% qual cutoff. Not that I don't like newer/slower riders having a go/competing/improving themselves at National level but when it gets to raceday it will be serious, and that is the time when them getting lapped is going to much more easily turn into them or the other rider getting knocked down. I have seen a few needless crashes because slower riders were getting lapped around the midpoint of a national race and the riders lapping just HAD to get passed. That is the mentality when it comes down to something as important as the nationals, adn I think that is something we could protect our slower/less experienced riders from. But I know this will be a touchy subject for some!

[R6_kid:Me]

The 115% rule seemed to work well last year in the 10 Lap races at PMCC, however when they did the 15 lapper it became obvious that a smaller margin may have been appropriate as Craig Sherriffs made his way up through the mid-pack towards the end of the F1 race. I don't think there were any major problems there as the field was relatively sparse (15 bikes total perhaps) and Craig had a fairly decent lead and didn't make any dodgy passes.

In WSBK and occasionly in MotoGP they will only just start to pass the back markers towards the last 3 laps of a 20+ lap race, perhaps it should be calculated such that you might expect the back markers to get passed at the end of a race, certainly not within 6-7 laps of the start of a 15 lap race as was evident in the example above.

[White trash]

The thing is, this is club racing, let's be honest.

Only the very fastest of riders end up lapping others and those that do, are skilled and experienced enough to do it safely and without fuss.

[FROSTY:Me]

In my opinion It is not speed differencial that is the big issue at CLUB level its actually errattic riding.
In my opinion the very WORST thing you could do at this level is get it in a newbee racers head that he has to watch out for the front runners and get out of the way.
Id suggest what will happpen is complete and utter carnage.
The newbee will indeed avoid the lead bike but most likely take out the number 2 and 3 bike doing so.
The best thing --again AT THIS LEVEL is to make it clear -dont look back and stick to your line.


I must say this is why I STRONGLY advocate anyone wanting to go racing to do a couple of trackdays first.

[driftn]

Isnt there a flag to let the slower rider know that some body is coming up behind? if this is used correctly there should be no problem

Way I see it if you stick to your line the people lapping are clearly good enough to know how to pass safely. Cant see the issue myself.
and for the record I have been lapped by a few people last year and I dont think they had any drama's getting past my big fat arse. (the bikes not mine)

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

Its the faster guys resposibility to pass the slower guy, if a blue flag is waved its to inform the slower guy there is a faster guy about to make a pass, general rule is to hold you line. Big speed differences can cause big problems but its still the guy passing that has to make the pass and not the slower guy 'getting out of the way' that way there is no confusion about who has to do what, when or where.

Its been mentioned about the slow group on track days, the emphasis has always been for the overtaking rider to have resposibility to make the pass, and some insist on no overtaking on the inside of a corner!

[Dreama]

Lappers are always going to be an issue but it's simply another interesting part of a race, whether you're the one getting lapped or the one passing. It adds a skill to both parties and certainly factors in stategies for the fast boys.
If the attitude is taken that slower riders ( I don't mean novices etc) should be removed from National rounds then it's pretty obvious what the result will be ..... oh, wait a minute ...... it's happened.
A few years ago I was lapping at 1.04's (ok .... high 4's) at Puke and got lapped by Stroudy, Ray Clee and Shawn Giles in the Jennian Homes sweeper.
( BTW ..... not quite ...I did my job cos Stroudy and Ray got past but Shawn Giles didn't until the back straight ... possibly a factor in keeping the title in NZ cos Giles (from Oz) never made up the lost ground )
However, even though Ray's passing manouvre was dodgy, it didn't faze me and I just stuck to my line. But, apparently it looked a bit scarey cos and myself and the riders behind me got black flagged.
Needless to say I was not overly impressed and strangely enough have never entered a national round since.
Getting lapped is a bit depressing, but if the top boys are doing extremely fast 58's, then anyone doing a very respectable 1.03 is going to get lapped every 12 laps, simple maths but it in no way makes the lapped rider incompetant. (my excuse anyway ... slow bike )
For example, in the 2001 36 lap Superbike race at Puke I just avoided getting lapped for the THIRD time ......... and came 5th.
Not sure if I have made a point, but I don't think it's an issue that should be changed because all it will do will deplete already depleted fields.

[GSVR]

Excellent post Dreama.

This is quite relevant with the proposed privateer rules for Supersport.

I think the rules are bang on despite the objections on "sound technical grounds". If people have to run standard suspension they will have to run harder tyres etc. A skilled rider will still be able to produce reasonable laptimes but no where near as fast as a bike set up with great suspension and very sticky tyres.

Thats brings me to what I consider the most compelling reason not to allow the proposed rules to be pasted (get the pun). There will be a huge increase in the amount of lapped riders if lots of reasonably fast clubracers decide to have a crack at this class.

The situation at the moment is we just don't have enough national level pace riders competing or actually just riders competing. So whats the answer? Import more Ozzys! Don't know the answer but its good to knock around ideas.

[tas152]

Excellent post Dreama.

This is quite relevant with the proposed privateer rules for Supersport.

I think the rules are bang on despite the objections on "sound technical grounds". If people have to run standard suspension they will have to run harder tyres etc. A skilled rider will still be able to produce reasonable laptimes but no where near as fast as a bike set up with great suspension and very sticky tyres.

Thats brings me to what I consider the most compelling reason not to allow the proposed rules to be pasted (get the pun). There will be a huge increase in the amount of lapped riders if lots of reasonably fast clubracers decide to have a crack at this class.

The situation at the moment is we just don't have enough national level pace riders competing or actually just riders competing. So whats the answer? Import more Ozzys! Don't know the answer but its good to knock around ideas.

The SPORTS PRODUCTION REGULATIONS/STOCK PRODUCTION Cup.(i.e. 600's) proposed rule changes have been updated 30/04/09 and the stock production cup now allows suspension changes. It's up on www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz now.

[GSVR]

Thanks. I should keep more of an eye on the MNZ site.

Not sure of the benefit of another 600 class if the rules are going to so close to what already exists.

[svracer12]

when it comes to our training down here alot of new riders are often very afraid of the possibility of getting laps. the easiest way for me to reassure them is that if someones fast enough to lap you then they must know what there doing so just sick to your line and you will be fine. I am still undecided on the blue flag approach as i have seen good and bad come from it, trust me its scary when someone sees the blue flag and drastically changes their line mid corner when you are already committed to the pass. and im sorry to say it but almost every race here is someone will be getting lapped.

[Trudes]

I can only speak from a bucket racing perspective, but I get lapped all the time (no worries, doesn't bother me, I'm getting better ) Anyway I always used to stick to my line, figured if they're good enough to be lapping me then they should be good enough to pass me safely.
However I've been knocked off my bike twice by someone passing me, so that makes me a little aware of folks lapping me, that and I constantly get comments that I'm "a bitch to pass". So I've started to feel a little more like if you're lapping me you ARE a lot faster than me and I don't want to fuck up your race by me getting in your way, so now I tend to try and make a bit of room for the lappers (this is made easier if someone is waving a blue flag at me, but alas this does not always happen in buckets here), however if I'm trying to hold you off from passing me because you are behind me in the race then tough shit, find some extra balls and pass me if you can (mwhahahaha). Anyway, back to your talk about big boys and girls races.....