To Robert Taylor and other MNZ bashers

[Robert Taylor]

Yep like this http://www.ptr.com.au/suspension_packages.htm

Thanks for that, had never looked at Phils site.

[enigma51]

Fucking hell i was away for two days and what do i come back to

3 threads about the mnz or part there off


You fuckers are the best

Stop fucking moaning about who said what my penis is way bigger than all of yours together and boomer can out ride all you fuckers on here

[cowpoos]

Fucking hell i was away for two days and what do i come back to

3 threads about the mnz or part there off


You fuckers are the best

Stop fucking moaning about who said what my penis is way bigger than all of yours together and boomer can out ride all you fuckers on here

thanks logan...that was really helpful!

[enigma51]

thanks logan...that was really helpful!

I try my best

[GSVR]

Yes I can relate to your first paragraph. I can recall there are certain racing formula overseas that within certain classes you have to be new to it and are only able to compete within that class for a set period before moving on. That obviously works well overseas but as always in NZ we always have the issue of a small population. I think its also relevant to say that if there are too many classes then it just dilutes other fields, several people have eluded to that.

Standard suspension you will get away with with the lower powered bikes ( e.g if there was still a 250cc production class.) But when you get the higher powered bikes 600cc and upwards the tyre degradation and chassis pitch control issues magnify somewhat. My reasons are as you know within the copy of a submission to MNZ that I posted on this site.
SV650s are another case in point, the link ratio is ''commuter comfort friendly'' and even when we supply a more standard ( non TTX ) type Ohlins shock for these we have to make some dramatic changes to give the ride height control required and save the tyres. Candidly, this took quite a while to work out. But the benefits and speed over oem are obvious.

I have no problem with a second tier 600 class. Perhaps a better term to use would have been ''a line in the sand'' rather than ''a bridge too far''. Again my reasons for allowing revalving of the oem shocks has been amply stated in that same submission and I note that you yourself saw at least some sense in it. Note my elaboration about this further on in this post.

I resolutely stand by my tyre wear arguments with respect to the higher powered bikes, especially. Respectfully, we see an enormous amount of suspension units per annum that we revalve to give both better control and to solve repeat rapid tyre wear / stress problems. More and more are coming from everyday track day riders .

That SV class a few years back was in its infancy, as it developed more and more with people becoming more competitive I believe we would have seen more crashing. At minimum I believe they should have allowed emulators and springs in the front end, if only to save ongoing crash repair bills as the front ends would have felt more secure. I guess you can counter that by saying theyd then crash at higher speeds! But heck, we fit emulators to a lot of SVs that only get used on the road, beacuse the riders are dissatisfied with their lack of secure feel.

The shock revalve offer was totally sincere and genuine with no agenda other than for yourself to experience what is possible with a standard GSXR shock and no limitation on you reporting it exactly as it was, good or bad. As an aside its not so easy to upgrade the standard SV650 single tube stock shock as it doesnt have a reservoir and a base compression valve to assist in maintaining suitable internal pressure balance. Possible but a bit of a can of worms.

Actually I genuinely dont recall those questions without laboriously dredging back through god only knows how many posts. Frankly, I get so many questions via many ways of delivering them that it often gets to brain overload on a daily basis. Perhaps as has been suggested by a racing friend I am too free with information. Questions are good as long as they are not ''loaded'' or as I brutally eluded to you are there to serve a twisted interpretation. Straight questions, straight answers. I had a number of PMs, one questioning how I have so much patience and another wondering why it took me so long to lose my rag. But hey Im not bitter and twisted about it and Im answering all your questions in good spirit.

I think many people are intimidated about doing the Nationals and I hear what you are saying. Arguably its a hell of a cost to travel from one end of the country to the other and factor in all the accomodation, meals etc etc. And maybe there are many competitors who would rather be on holiday during January. I know I would rather be doing just that! Myriad reasons and they cannot all be blamed on class rules. I also think Bears should be included in Nationals.

Apologies for being so busy!!

Thats a good question re 600 revalves. Most of the top riders do so and part of that is because we are there, because we are willing to do so and top riders are always seeking a further edge. I can recall Shaun harris and I doing a lot of suspension dyno work on his CBR600 a few years back, we both learnt a lot about damping curves required for road race and tyre performance preservation. This accumulation of knowledge and new ideas never stops.That is the nature of the beast and I am proud of having played in part in lifting the game, consistent with what has happened in other worldwide markets. With the exception that it has been 'New Zealandised i.e much more of the backup is done out of sheer goodwill. Also proud of that but we also have to at least cover costs! Arguably then many of the distributor teams ( who we have contracts with ) effectively subsidise the ''privateer ''riders as we always find at least some time to help people who request same. It is never ever regarded as a cash cow on the day, if we sell something then thats great! Nothing wrong in that.
Teretonga is a track that requires reasonably aggressive valving and heavier springing to keep the rear end up in its stroke and away from the ''accelerative part'' of the link ratio during the considerable time the bikes spend at high speed banked over in the sweeper. This sweeper goes on for longer than the Parabolica at Monza. The surface is similiar to Taupo and similarly cold so compound choices and tyre pressures are also critical. Up the road Timaru throws up its own challenges with a more amenable surface with many flat turns and the bikes are always on their sides. Softer springing with more preload and often less aggressive valving. Ruapuna is different again and there is a lot of emphasis on getting the front end right as theres heavy braking going on. Manfield is similiar in many ways to Ruapuna but when we get to Pukekohe throw all the settings out of the window. Nasty bumps and elevation change over the hill, general reduction in spring rate and valving and lots of emphasis on getting rebound control within the right window.
Factor in also that we are always playing with geometry, fork position in clamps and rear ride height length. Frankly, the aftermarket rear shocks allow such changes infinitely more quickly than oem. Invariably we always have new stuff to test from the factory and this year we tested new front end stuff in Sam Smiths bike at Pukekohe. That was the reason for his top form there and not the deliberate red herring of our ''electronic'' rear shock. The reactions were interesting.
The TTX stuff we now predominantly work with makes life easy in that we can do a trackside revalve very quickly as they are designed to be that way, spring changes are also dead easy. As it is also with the FGK cartridges.
Candidly we are rather less excited about revalving oem shocks trackside as they are not exactly designed to be serviced so quickly and unlike TTX we do not have a large inventory of springs for such shocks, which are also rather less uniform. Even with just the spring issue I think those who have proposed the rule change have not considered the further logistics required.
People with our product and backup have had service a lot more cheaply than would be the case in first world European / North American countries. For one they would be expected to carry their own spring alternative rates for varying tracks. How many competitors in this country have stiffer springs for ''one off'' tracks such as Teretonga and softer ''wet'' springs etc? How many have the specific tools to effect the changes? And that also includes oem....

As I have stated I am personally not averse to cost controlled classes as long as the line in the sand is not placed in a poorly determined position, devoid of due diligence in listening to experienced experts who have worked at the coalface confronting the issues

. It will be possible to have a decent valving spec for oem that allied with spring changes will cover most eventualities. But I for one am certainly not going to carry a huge spring inventory as I do with Ohlins to exchange trackside, competitors will have to purchase and carry their own, that is fair and reasonable.

With the benefit of considerable knowledge learnt from Ohlins, Race Tech and Traxxion Dynamics we are able to apply mods into oem shocks / forks at reasonable cost. Having a suspension dyno assists in determination of ideal base damping curves.

Level 1 Service, revalve, respring oem suspension

Level 2 Fit internal upspec components ( eg Race Tech ) into oem suspension

Level 3 Fit high quality aftermarket shock units / cartridges

That is the philosophy we have developed and I believe most volume suspension tuners would also operate on. Suspension solutions for all budgets.

I am happy to field more questions but let me catch my breath first!

Thanks. Plenty there to read and think about for all that are considering or already racing.
Regards Garry

If the new proposed rules come in (re Privateers) and OEM shocks are allowed extensive modifications as long as they look standard externally don't you think serious racers will just buy up several shocks and set them up for different tracks and conditions and then just swap the entire shock out at the track? Its possible to buy many second hand OEM shocks for the price of a decent aftermarket one.

[BigGuy]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

Come on mate.... now there's no need for that.

As a personal benefactor of Robert's help, I can fairly much state that most people would take exception with that comment.

Robert helped me out with out with my suspension and he didn't know me from a bar of soap!

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks. Plenty there to read and think about for all that are considering or already racing.
Regards Garry

If the new proposed rules come in (re Privateers) and OEM shocks are allowed extensive modifications as long as they look standard externally don't you think serious racers will just buy up several shocks and set them up for different tracks and conditions and then just swap the entire shock out at the track? Its possible to buy many second hand OEM shocks for the price of a decent aftermarket one.

I guess thats a possibility but also the reality is that if a track specific spec was developed for each track then some poor sod ( like me ) would have to do it over a couple of seasons. You cannot also go straight from the dyno setting and know it will 100% work on a specific track, you test variations on the theme. Frankly there are so many variables like tyres, the biological component ( the rider) etc that I dont really see that this would be an issue. Aside from that bikes and their components keep changing.
There is never a perfect setting, one reason we ourselves are always trying stuff. We turned up at Ruapuna nationals with some fork extender components for Stroudy, completely untested. Stroudy being Stroudy he didnt fit these until right before official qualifying, much to my bemusement as they were totally untested / unproven. Then he goes and sticks it on pole, nearly broaching the 1 minute 30 barrier! Thats a fairytale story, but usually theres a lot more laborious work and combinations to test, you can try 5 things and 2 may work.
And like I intimated personally Im not quite as enthused about pulling oem shocks apart at meetings, they are just not as user friendly and quick to work with. Another relevant issue ( seems a small one but it is important ) is that oem springs are not marked for rate. Kiwis being kiwis many will find cheap used springs somewhere without positively knowing their rate. We have never had to bring our spring rate tester to meetings as all of our Ohlins springs are etched for rates. Such equipment doesnt travel so well. Its a whole new can of worms.
And its with a bit of humour to note that there are so many secondhand oem shocks around because they have been replaced with aftermarket! Funny world.

[cowpoos]

Thanks. Plenty there to read and think about for all that are considering or already racing.
Regards Garry

If the new proposed rules come in (re Privateers) and OEM shocks are allowed extensive modifications as long as they look standard externally don't you think serious racers will just buy up several shocks and set them up for different tracks and conditions and then just swap the entire shock out at the track? Its possible to buy many second hand OEM shocks for the price of a decent aftermarket one.

a OEM shock retails for more than a Ohlins shock.

[Robert Taylor]

a OEM shock retails for more than a Ohlins shock.

In fairness that is not always so, but given a choice if I was spending a similiar amount of money its a no brainer. Plus the Swedish shock will be delivered with the most appropriate springing and set up for you. GSVR did raise a relevant point in that there are doubtless a lot of disused oem shocks around. Of course they are only relevant if they fit the models being raced.

[That Guy]

Interesting thread...it seems to me at least everyone's heart is in the right place - we all want motorcycle racing to thrive in NZ.

Just an observation regarding declining road racing entrants:
Comparatively, MX in NZ I think is doing really well (sure it could be better too) - we produce riders of an excellent international standard (Cooper, Townley etc etc). Look at how many riders turn up to race at the Woodville GP for instance. It has been a long time (too long!) since the days of Slight and Crafar.

Why not look at what makes MX so much better and start there...

[avgas]

And even more money.

What about a proper streetstock class - 600cc upwards, no modifications.
That way anyone with a couple of k could enter - and if they enjoy it they could get a new bike (making the top of the class bikes still less than 30K).

I mean seriously - do we want Nascar styles here in MNZ? R1 frame with a K8 motor and wheels of some ducati? I'm not saying scrap that class. Just i would rather say
"Wow this will be a good race, its an old R1 vs a new GSXR....."

You will also find sponsors easy as all the companies would happily sponsor a race where the spectators could buy the EXACT SAME BIKE instore.

This would also test the racers more than the bike.
To be honest i don't see why some racers compete in the season when they are going to get their arse handed to them by someone on a $100K+ bike. Those people are the true racers in the sport - they only race for the love of it.

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting thread...it seems to me at least everyone's heart is in the right place - we all want motorcycle racing to thrive in NZ.

Just an observation regarding declining road racing entrants:
Comparatively, MX in NZ I think is doing really well (sure it could be better too) - we produce riders of an excellent international standard (Cooper, Townley etc etc). Look at how many riders turn up to race at the Woodville GP for instance. It has been a long time (too long!) since the days of Slight and Crafar.

Why not look at what makes MX so much better and start there...

Its not neccessarily that overall numbers are small ( which they arent ) Its that there are so many series and not enough people enter for the Nationals, but are content to enter winter series racing. Its not also neccessarily about machine specifications and costs ( although there is quite a bit of room to move within sensible boundaries ) Taking a walk through the pits of a VMCC or Bears round proves that there is still quite a bit of money around.

FYI the top runners at the MX Nationals will have two bikes and these are extensively kitted out with motor and suspension mods. The investment here is also considerable.

I think it has more to do with timing, number of rounds, time away ( maybe drop a South Island round ), promotion and encouragement.

[tas152]

... the Nationals ...( maybe drop a South Island round )

WTF

[That Guy]

Its not neccessarily that overall numbers are small ( which they arent ) Its that there are so many series and not enough people enter for the Nationals, but are content to enter winter series racing. Its not also neccessarily about machine specifications and costs ( although there is quite a bit of room to move within sensible boundaries ) Taking a walk through the pits of a VMCC or Bears round proves that there is still quite a bit of money around.

FYI the top runners at the MX Nationals will have two bikes and these are extensively kitted out with motor and suspension mods. The investment here is also considerable.

I think it has more to do with timing, number of rounds, time away ( maybe drop a South Island round ), promotion and encouragement.

Yep I wasn't saying $ wasn't being spent at MX (although having raced both disciplines my experience was MX requires much less $ than road...expecially when it comes to crashing and tyres). I am saying it seems MX is healthier than road, at least that's my perception anyway, and to qaulify that I'd suggest attendance at races like Woodville, and riders like Cooper and Townley are the proof.

Therefore, what's different? Probably timing, number of rounds, time away etc are factors.....but I think its more than that too.

Here's my view at least any way: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...775#post235775

[Robert Taylor]

Yep I wasn't saying $ wasn't being spent at MX (although having raced both disciplines my experience was MX requires much less $ than road...expecially when it comes to crashing and tyres). I am saying it seems MX is healthier than road, at least that's my perception anyway, and to qaulify that I'd suggest attendance at races like Woodville, and riders like Cooper and Townley are the proof.

Therefore, what's different? Probably timing, number of rounds, time away etc are factors.....but I think its more than that too.

Here's my view at least any way: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...775#post235775

Actually attendance at MX always has been bigger, at least in NZ. MX is perceived as being easier but that is not reason enough in itself to dumb down the upper echelon classes in road racing.